Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA18530 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:12:58 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745D81@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Determinism Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:09:27 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
The Matrix is good, but surely 'The Man With Two Brains' is the relevant
film is this discussion?
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Robin Faichney
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Friday, April 6, 2001 9:40 am
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Determinism
>
> On Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 08:06:17PM -0400, Scott Chase wrote:
> >
> > >On 04/05/01 09:03, Chris Taylor said this-
> > >
> > > >Actually this is worth asking: Is there anyone on this list who
> doesn't
> > > >think that a brain composed of neurons, interacting through
> electrical,
> > > >chemical and mechanical routes only, is enough to make a mind?
> > >
> > >Yup. Me.
> > >
> > >If it ain't in a human body, we have no proof that it's possible. I do
> > >happen to think that the 'brain in a box' hypothesis is bogus. The mind
> > >has fingers and toes and eyes and ears.
> > >
> > I suppose you're not intrigued by the plot of that wondrous Berkeleyian
> (the
> > idealist not the university) movie _The Matrix_?
>
> I very much enjoyed that film, but no way is it "Berkeleyian". People are
> fed a false reality, but there is a real reality out there. (Otherwise
> there couldn't be a false one, could there?)
>
> > I grant that I'm probably
> > not having my thoughts and perecptions generated by a computer, but the
> > argument does set a neat little contrast with other views. I'm not
> formally
> > acquainted with the B.I.V. argument, but have caught snippets in
> neverending
> > threads on usenet.
>
> You may or may not consider it significant that in The Matrix, these are
> not disembodied brains in vats, but complete people. But even where
> an actual brain is in a vat, I'd suggest that, given sufficient input
> *and* output, with feedback (so what I do affects what I see), and social
> interaction through that mechanism, a mind could develop. It's not the
> actual physical body that's required, but all the experience it gives us.
>
> > I'd consider *my* car an extension of *me*. If a bird poops on *my* car,
> it
> > has in essence pooped on *me*. I wonder if my mind inteacts with my car
> in
> > some strange way.
>
> Why "strange"? Surely your mind interacts with your car in very
> straightforward ways. But we need to distinguish direct interaction,
> e.g. when driving, from phenomena like the sense of ownership, for
> which direct interaction probably isn't actually required, though I'm
> sure it helps. As regards identification (poop on my car, poop on me),
> the object of it need not even exist. "I am spiritually an Atlantean!"
> Though that probably applies to the sense of ownership too. "You
> should see my beautiful unicorn! Unfortunately, he's invisible."
>
> > Would one's personal diary be a compoent of their mind? Can a mind be
> > partially offloaded onto other media? Those tought might not be easily
> > recollected several months later unless ecphorized by the cues in a
> diary.
>
> Absolutely. Any scrawl on the back of an envelope is a memetic
> download/backup.
>
> --
> Robin Faichney
> Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org
> (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)
>
> ===============================================================
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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