RE: Determinism

From: Vincent Campbell (v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk)
Date: Tue Apr 10 2001 - 12:09:27 BST

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    From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk>
    To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
    Subject: RE: Determinism
    Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:09:27 +0100
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    The Matrix is good, but surely 'The Man With Two Brains' is the relevant
    film is this discussion?

    Vincent

    > ----------
    > From: Robin Faichney
    > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Sent: Friday, April 6, 2001 9:40 am
    > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Subject: Re: Determinism
    >
    > On Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 08:06:17PM -0400, Scott Chase wrote:
    > >
    > > >On 04/05/01 09:03, Chris Taylor said this-
    > > >
    > > > >Actually this is worth asking: Is there anyone on this list who
    > doesn't
    > > > >think that a brain composed of neurons, interacting through
    > electrical,
    > > > >chemical and mechanical routes only, is enough to make a mind?
    > > >
    > > >Yup. Me.
    > > >
    > > >If it ain't in a human body, we have no proof that it's possible. I do
    > > >happen to think that the 'brain in a box' hypothesis is bogus. The mind
    > > >has fingers and toes and eyes and ears.
    > > >
    > > I suppose you're not intrigued by the plot of that wondrous Berkeleyian
    > (the
    > > idealist not the university) movie _The Matrix_?
    >
    > I very much enjoyed that film, but no way is it "Berkeleyian". People are
    > fed a false reality, but there is a real reality out there. (Otherwise
    > there couldn't be a false one, could there?)
    >
    > > I grant that I'm probably
    > > not having my thoughts and perecptions generated by a computer, but the
    > > argument does set a neat little contrast with other views. I'm not
    > formally
    > > acquainted with the B.I.V. argument, but have caught snippets in
    > neverending
    > > threads on usenet.
    >
    > You may or may not consider it significant that in The Matrix, these are
    > not disembodied brains in vats, but complete people. But even where
    > an actual brain is in a vat, I'd suggest that, given sufficient input
    > *and* output, with feedback (so what I do affects what I see), and social
    > interaction through that mechanism, a mind could develop. It's not the
    > actual physical body that's required, but all the experience it gives us.
    >
    > > I'd consider *my* car an extension of *me*. If a bird poops on *my* car,
    > it
    > > has in essence pooped on *me*. I wonder if my mind inteacts with my car
    > in
    > > some strange way.
    >
    > Why "strange"? Surely your mind interacts with your car in very
    > straightforward ways. But we need to distinguish direct interaction,
    > e.g. when driving, from phenomena like the sense of ownership, for
    > which direct interaction probably isn't actually required, though I'm
    > sure it helps. As regards identification (poop on my car, poop on me),
    > the object of it need not even exist. "I am spiritually an Atlantean!"
    > Though that probably applies to the sense of ownership too. "You
    > should see my beautiful unicorn! Unfortunately, he's invisible."
    >
    > > Would one's personal diary be a compoent of their mind? Can a mind be
    > > partially offloaded onto other media? Those tought might not be easily
    > > recollected several months later unless ecphorized by the cues in a
    > diary.
    >
    > Absolutely. Any scrawl on the back of an envelope is a memetic
    > download/backup.
    >
    > --
    > Robin Faichney
    > Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org
    > (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)
    >
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    >

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    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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