Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA18604 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:20:57 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745D82@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: The Demise of a Meme Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:17:27 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Now this is intriuging, as it brings to mind a French word for a dog's bark,
IIRC, although I can't remember the word (Tintin books spring to mind).
Anyway, the word is onomatopaeic- to the French, but to English ears it's
ridiculous sounding nothing like the noise dogs make. I'm sorry, this is
really crap since I can't think of the word at all- does anyone have a clue
what I'm on about?
You have jif-jaf. I wonder if that's the same as the Chiff-Chaff in
English?
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Kenneth Van Oost
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Friday, April 6, 2001 9:08 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: The Demise of a Meme
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Douglas Brooker <dbrooker@clara.co.uk>
> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:30 AM
> Subject: RE: The Demise of a Meme
>
>
> >
> > > Arbitrary = without reference to the state or process of affairs
> > > purportedly represented. Thus, onomotopoeic words (such as
> > > 'hiss' for the sound a snake makes) are not arbitrary or by mutual
> > > convention, since the sound of the term resembles the sound made
> > > by the referent, while the name 'snake' to refer to the no-legged
> > > critter that so hisses is an arbitrary term, agreed upon by mutual
> > > convention; we could just as well call snakes 'egbert's', if we all
> > > agreed to..
> >
> > This is ok so long as you keep within the boundaries of the system -
> > the English language. But do all languages follow this pattern for the
> > sound a snake makes? If they don't, which is likely (just an opinion)
> > why have generations of English speakers chosen to use a word that is
> > onomotopoeic?
>
> << Considering the Dutch language, no...I don 't recall any patterns that
> would follow this concept as for the word ' hiss ' that is.
> But on the other hand, we did and still use what you can consider slang,
> or flash, jargon, gibberish, lingo, double Dutch ( what 's in a name, he
> !?).
> We have names for animals in our language that refers to the sound
> they make, like " oehoe ", that is a owl or " karekiet " that is a kind
> of
> bird,
> or jif- jaf, a kind of bird etc.
> But for the sound that a snake makes, we don 't use another word than
> snake. That is in general, if we put the word in context we use the exact
> term, we give the snake a name....boa, anaconda, viper etc.
> For the word " hiss " there is no translation....
>
> > I haven't looked up the etymology of snake, but the slightly hissing
> > sound of 'SN' evokes an echo of an hiss. This is only to suggest that
> > what appears arbitrary today may not always have been so. It's
> > apparent arbitrariness may be derived from a collective forgetfulness
> > of the word's origin.
>
> Etymological the word snake, or " slang " in Dutch comes from to swing,
> from to dangle, from to wind, from to move in twisted ways,...the ways
> by which a snake moves.
>
> Best,
>
> Kenneth
>
> ( I am, because we are)
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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