RE: The Demise of a Meme

From: Vincent Campbell (v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk)
Date: Tue Apr 10 2001 - 12:17:27 BST

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    From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk>
    To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
    Subject: RE: The Demise of a Meme
    Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:17:27 +0100
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    Now this is intriuging, as it brings to mind a French word for a dog's bark,
    IIRC, although I can't remember the word (Tintin books spring to mind).
    Anyway, the word is onomatopaeic- to the French, but to English ears it's
    ridiculous sounding nothing like the noise dogs make. I'm sorry, this is
    really crap since I can't think of the word at all- does anyone have a clue
    what I'm on about?

    You have jif-jaf. I wonder if that's the same as the Chiff-Chaff in
    English?

    Vincent

    > ----------
    > From: Kenneth Van Oost
    > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Sent: Friday, April 6, 2001 9:08 pm
    > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Subject: Re: The Demise of a Meme
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: Douglas Brooker <dbrooker@clara.co.uk>
    > To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
    > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:30 AM
    > Subject: RE: The Demise of a Meme
    >
    >
    > >
    > > > Arbitrary = without reference to the state or process of affairs
    > > > purportedly represented. Thus, onomotopoeic words (such as
    > > > 'hiss' for the sound a snake makes) are not arbitrary or by mutual
    > > > convention, since the sound of the term resembles the sound made
    > > > by the referent, while the name 'snake' to refer to the no-legged
    > > > critter that so hisses is an arbitrary term, agreed upon by mutual
    > > > convention; we could just as well call snakes 'egbert's', if we all
    > > > agreed to..
    > >
    > > This is ok so long as you keep within the boundaries of the system -
    > > the English language. But do all languages follow this pattern for the
    > > sound a snake makes? If they don't, which is likely (just an opinion)
    > > why have generations of English speakers chosen to use a word that is
    > > onomotopoeic?
    >
    > << Considering the Dutch language, no...I don 't recall any patterns that
    > would follow this concept as for the word ' hiss ' that is.
    > But on the other hand, we did and still use what you can consider slang,
    > or flash, jargon, gibberish, lingo, double Dutch ( what 's in a name, he
    > !?).
    > We have names for animals in our language that refers to the sound
    > they make, like " oehoe ", that is a owl or " karekiet " that is a kind
    > of
    > bird,
    > or jif- jaf, a kind of bird etc.
    > But for the sound that a snake makes, we don 't use another word than
    > snake. That is in general, if we put the word in context we use the exact
    > term, we give the snake a name....boa, anaconda, viper etc.
    > For the word " hiss " there is no translation....
    >
    > > I haven't looked up the etymology of snake, but the slightly hissing
    > > sound of 'SN' evokes an echo of an hiss. This is only to suggest that
    > > what appears arbitrary today may not always have been so. It's
    > > apparent arbitrariness may be derived from a collective forgetfulness
    > > of the word's origin.
    >
    > Etymological the word snake, or " slang " in Dutch comes from to swing,
    > from to dangle, from to wind, from to move in twisted ways,...the ways
    > by which a snake moves.
    >
    > Best,
    >
    > Kenneth
    >
    > ( I am, because we are)
    >
    >
    >
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    >

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    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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    see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit



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