Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id JAA15902 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:55:55 +0100 From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 03:58:24 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Re: Determinism Message-ID: <3AD13360.15463.BAAB0F@localhost> In-reply-to: <019001c0bda6$1de8f100$5eaefea9@rcn.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 5 Apr 2001, at 3:57, Aaron Agassi wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <joedees@bellsouth.net>
> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Determinism
>
>
> On 3 Apr 2001, at 11:26, Chris Taylor wrote:
>
> > > To completely model a system, first, your map would have to be
> > > coextensive with the territory, thus doubling it; then you'd need
> > > a map to represent the Heideggerian change that mapping, which
> > > requires perception of, therefore interaction with, would make to
> > > the system, then another map of this further altering recursion,
> > > and so on ad nauseum ad infinitum. Due to this infinite progress,
> > > it is, IN PRINCIPLE, impossible to completely represent a concrete
> > > empirical system, such as a mind or an ecology.
> >
> > The practical difficulties of the mapping aren't really relevant.
> > The point is that *in principle* if you could have perfect knowledge
> > you could perfectly predict. There are no ghosts in any machines. In
> > practice we can only work within practical boundaries.
> >
> Actually, the idea that perfect knowledge of the present would allow
> perfect prediction of the future omits the fact that some events are
> indeed random, i.e. uncaused, such as positron-electron pairs winking
> into and out of existence in phase space (since their energy states
> cancel each other out, the principle of conservation of mass/energy is
> not violated). Although quantum fluctuations permit such events to
> happen, and even their statistical probability can be calculated, the
> certain knowledge of where/when a particular pair will appear is
> inpossible to determine; in this sense, not only uncertainty, but also
> indeterminism, is part and parcel of the empirical universe.
>
> *Quantum silliness. Bah, humbug!
>
No Albertmass turkey for YOU, Scrooge! This blithe dismissal
does not even rise to the level of an hominem, for nothing in
particular is cited for attack.
>
> It is a false dichotomy to insist that either
> the universe is wholly random and arbitrary, or it is
> superdetermined. Clearly, most of the astronomical events are
> indeed determined by mass, velocity and gravitational concerns,
> while on the microphysical level, some events are not so
> determined.
>
> *Then you are taking the view that, as with Brownian motion,
> Indeterminacy averages out on the macro level. Thus rendering the
> point moot, even where it valid.
>
It would only be moot if all averaging out occurs to an absolute
degree, and this could only happen with infinitely large objects.
The statistical difference between absolute ans actual quantum
averaging may not be very significant for a thrown football, but
neither is it nonexistent.
>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Chris Taylor (chris@bioinf.man.ac.uk)
> > http://bioinf.man.ac.uk/ »people»chris
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
>
> =====================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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>
===============================This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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