Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA07138 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:18:03 +0100 Message-ID: <3ACCB324.9F3CF210@clara.co.uk> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 19:02:12 +0100 From: Douglas Brooker <dbrooker@clara.co.uk> Organization: University of London X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: taboos References: <E14j0vU-000GsE-00@gaea> <002901c0bbb0$f2000660$b902bed4@default><3AC8E1B1.33BCD878@clara.co.uk> <001101c0bc77$1fa65b20$0307bed4@default> <3ACA3B58.F9D77350@clara.co.uk> <002101c0bd40$443d5280$820abed4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Kenneth Van Oost wrote:
> Hi Douglas,
> You wrote,
> I'm interested in how public myths survive in societies even when
> > they are contradicted by empirical evidence. An example - the American
> > self-myth about themselves as the most democratic nation in the world -
> but
> > there is evidence to suggest they aren't a democracy at all, at least in
> the way
> > they see themselves. Outsiders can see a society's contradictions, which
> those
> > within a society cannot.
>
> << You 'll be interested to know I just posted a mail to the list
> considering
> just an example.
> In addition, I think, a starting point for your search has to be the history
> of the country or nation you are willing to examine.
> Even here, in Belgium, when myths are contradicted by emperical evidence
> we don 't believe it. Even more, those who try to come up with evidence are
> blacked. For an example, look for the evidence in the famous X1 -case,
> where policeman were almost convicted for dealing with a victim/ witness
> in the realm of the Dutroux- case.
Read abit about these scandals in the UK press. it's fascinating. The book I
am working on now about Canada is part pricking of myth, and a negative reaction
is quite probable, at least in English Canada.
>
> Even though, you describe yourselves as hyper-individualists, are you so
> when
> > compared to North Americans, or would you just like to think you are?
>
> << No, I think we are hyper- individualists in a certain way.
> IMO, the evidence for that can be found in the numbers of racists ( Belgium
> is the second most racist country in Europe), in the numbers of suicides
> ( Belgium is compared to its population the first country in Europe where
> people between the age of 13/ 14 - and 25 commits suicide) and the
> evidence can also be found in the number of traffic accidents and people
> whom died in car crashes. Also here,Belgium scores high... jumping red
> lights is a hobby, speed limits are almost the for the full 100% ignored....
This jogs my memory, reading somewhere, someone associating French driving
habits as a reaction to the "Civilian" values that legal theory presents, but I
can't recall who it was or precisely what they said.
>
> IMO, all these examples are due to a certain individualistic way of living,
> and like I said in the post to Vincent, all due to our history.
> But there is a difference between the Flemish side and the French speaking
> side. IMO, the why for that difference has to be found in the way of
> living,
> Flemish people are known to work harder than those in the South of the
> country. Flemish people, like you mantion in your post, lack a national
> identity, but that can be said of those in the South too.
> Something ' Belgium ', what expresses our identity, I do not know any-
> thing. All what can be regarded as ' Belgium ' gets trown out.
> Examples, singers like Adamo and Jhonny Halliday don 't get succes here,
> Priorgine, gets the Nobel prize, but is totally unknown here, Adolphe Sax
> famous builder of musical instruments, long forgotten and buried... they
> just mentioned his 100 year birthday as Bill Clinton paid tribute to the man
> blowing his horn at a party....
> And the most famous of all, King Charles V, we dispise the fellow....
>
Sounds very Canadian, at least English Canadian - the Quebecois have quite an
advanced 'star' system, justifiably.
> > I'd like to read a good Belgian political history from about 1800 on. The
> very
> > little I know strikes a strong chord with Canadian reality. Two
> languages, two nations, differing values, constitutional
> monarchy...bilingual legislation.
> > Could you recommend one? I could read one in French, but would all French
> language histories of Belgium be one-sided?
>
> << I will search for one, just to mention one... I do not know, but I have
> a colleague with a greater libary.... I will come back to this one.
>
No rush, this is next year's project at the earliest, but a recommendation would
be valued.
best wishes
Douglas
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kenneth
>
> ( I am, because we are)
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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