Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA01661 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 4 Apr 2001 21:04:29 +0100 Message-ID: <3ACB7A95.4D625504@clara.co.uk> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 20:48:37 +0100 From: Douglas Brooker <dbrooker@clara.co.uk> Organization: University of London X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: taboos References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745D5D@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Hi Vincent,
Thanks for this reference. it will be interesting to read how he/she applies a
legal mind to the theoretical issues discussed here.
Douglas
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> Hi Douglas,
>
> As aside this, but, have you seen JM Balkin's 'Cultural Software'? He's a
> professor of constitutional law, and the book's about memes and ideology. I
> thought it might appeal to someone of your field. (I haven't read it all
> yet, but it looks quite interesting).
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Douglas Brooker
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 3, 2001 10:06 pm
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: taboos
> >
> >
> > Hi Kenneth, thanks for these comments
> >
> > Kenneth Van Oost wrote:
> >
> > > << Yes, of course, but how in a subliminal way would we know if we
> > > were to make do something we normally do not !?
> > > We have to be open minded for the ad, no !?
> > > So, if it was subliminal how would/ could it work !?
> > > What would be the result and on the other hand IMo still, the free will
> > is
> > > excluded in such attempts_ your free will is indeed subverted, but you
> > > don 't know do you !?
> > > So, in other words, how would you know if your free will gets subverted
> > > by some ads if those ads were presented to you in a subliminal way !?
> > > There is a twist and turn here....!!
> >
> > The individual can't know that it is happening. That's where the power of
> > the
> > myth takes hold. It's the fear of losing control. Did you ever see the
> > film
> > Invasion of the Body Snatchers? The interesting part of subliminal
> > advertising
> > is the anxiety is evokes in people, rather than whether it works or not.
> >
> > > > One difference concerns a view of the state as protector that
> > > > is a natural and spontaneous view for Europeans, but this view of the
> > > state's
> > > > role is controversial in common law systems.
> > >
> > > << That is maybe an argument that goes in a general way, but if we take
> > > the Belgium situation in more detail, I think you have to reconsider
> > your
> > > ideas.
> >
> > I'm just at the stage in my reading where the differences are starting to
> > become
> > apparent. A problem will be how much of the detail to work in. One of
> > the
> > dichotomies in legal theory is between theory's view of real life and real
> > 'real
> > life'. Even between legal theory and 'real laws' this is a problem. In
> > legal
> > theory there are many basic propositions about reality that are widely
> > accepted
> > amongst theorists but which are contradicted in reality. These have to be
> > the
> > starting point as a comparativist because that is the academic community I
> > am
> > in, but also because they are the public myths each system has about
> > themselves. I'm interested in how public myths survive in societies even
> > when
> > they are contradicted by empirical evidence. An example - the American
> > self-myth about themselves as the most democratic nation in the world -
> > but
> > there is evidence to suggest they aren't a democracy at all, at least in
> > the way
> > they see themselves. Outsiders can see a society's contradictions, which
> > those
> > within a society cannot.
> >
> > But stark theoretical oppositions are just theoretical, reality will
> > always
> > throw up contradictions. The challenge is to show the common law elements
> > of
> > civil law and the civil law elements of common law. Precedents are said
> > to be
> > important to common law but not so much to civil law, but it seems in
> > reality
> > the opposition is not so stark, precedents are important, for example in
> > France,
> > but they are treated in a different, less open way. Everyone knows its
> > the
> > reality, but its not talked about so much, its not a part of their
> > self-myth.
> > And there are differences in this regard amongst different European
> > countries.
> > When you compare the two systems then, in a global way and find
> > similarities,
> > you have to ask, 'what then does it mean to be a common law, or civil law
> > system, if distinctions between them are blurred? Are the terms
> > meaningful?
> >
> > Another important concept is the distinction between public discourse in
> > the
> > legal profession and private reality, national myths, as it were,
> > contrasted
> > with the beliefs of real citizens. Canada prides itself on being a
> > thoroughly
> > democratic country, but there are very strong indications that it's legal
> > system
> > reflects a strong authoritarian trait, that might be necessary to revert
> > to
> > should there be a separation crisis. Legally, its democracy is a bit of
> > chimera. But this authoritarian trait is not discussed, because it's not
> > a part
> > of the national myth.
> >
> >
> > > Of course, this is a personal view but IMO a common one in Belgium.
> > > The general view is that the state is not our protector, it tries to be,
> > but
> > > on
> > > the contrary, the state works against us. All of the scandals, murders
> > etc
> > > did and does undermind the states power. That is why, IMO we the Belgium
> > > people are all hyper- individualists in a certain way and on the other
> > hand
> > > very
> > > modest, conservative, afraid, suspicious and underhanded. Of course,
> > there
> > > is a difference between the Flemish side and the French speaking half of
> > > the country... and that can answer your second part concerning the
> > cultural
> > > attitude towards the nature of truth.( See below)
> > >
> >
> > I'll save this for future reference, its a good summary against which to
> > weigh
> > some of the more general statements that are made about Civilian values.
> >
> > Usually, characteristics like "afraid, suspicious, underhanded" don't form
> > a
> > part of a national self-myth. A joke Canadians sometimes make is that we
> > have
> > no national identity...nervous laughter usually follows.
> >
> > Even though, you describe yourselves as hyper-individualists, are you so
> > when
> > compared to North Americans, or would you just like to think you are?
> > Belgium's part of the European social market, and the role envisaged for
> > the
> > state in health care, education , minimum wage, unemployment benefits etc
> > is
> > very collectivist, when compared to the US.
> >
> > > The Flemish side is catholic, conservative and right winged, the French
> > > speaking half is social in nature and therefor more left winged, more
> > open
> > > but also more unquiet, more mischief makers,...at least the politicians.
> > > And, IMO those two opposite belief systems play like you said a
> > different
> > > role towards truth and therefor the state 's truth.
> > > And....not for nothing are " les compromis Belges " famous throughout
> > the
> > > world....even Canada have learned from us....Quebec, you know...
> > >
> >
> > I'd like to read a good Belgian political history from about 1800 on. The
> > very
> > little I know strikes a strong chord with Canadian reality. Two
> > languages, two
> > nations, differing values, constitutional monarchy...bilingual
> > legislation.
> > Could you recommend one? I could read one in French, but would all French
> > language histories of Belgium be one-sided?
> >
> > > In addition, Vincent and I did have also a discussion about American
> > > Nationalism, maybe you can have a peek there....
> > > The second area concerns cultural attitudes towards the nature of truth
> > as
> > > manifested in the each legal system.
> >
> > I'll look for this, thanks
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Douglas
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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