Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA28687 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:46:48 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745D5D@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: taboos Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:43:14 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Hi Douglas,
As aside this, but, have you seen JM Balkin's 'Cultural Software'? He's a
professor of constitutional law, and the book's about memes and ideology. I
thought it might appeal to someone of your field. (I haven't read it all
yet, but it looks quite interesting).
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Douglas Brooker
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Tuesday, April 3, 2001 10:06 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: taboos
>
>
> Hi Kenneth, thanks for these comments
>
> Kenneth Van Oost wrote:
>
> > << Yes, of course, but how in a subliminal way would we know if we
> > were to make do something we normally do not !?
> > We have to be open minded for the ad, no !?
> > So, if it was subliminal how would/ could it work !?
> > What would be the result and on the other hand IMo still, the free will
> is
> > excluded in such attempts_ your free will is indeed subverted, but you
> > don 't know do you !?
> > So, in other words, how would you know if your free will gets subverted
> > by some ads if those ads were presented to you in a subliminal way !?
> > There is a twist and turn here....!!
>
> The individual can't know that it is happening. That's where the power of
> the
> myth takes hold. It's the fear of losing control. Did you ever see the
> film
> Invasion of the Body Snatchers? The interesting part of subliminal
> advertising
> is the anxiety is evokes in people, rather than whether it works or not.
>
> > > One difference concerns a view of the state as protector that
> > > is a natural and spontaneous view for Europeans, but this view of the
> > state's
> > > role is controversial in common law systems.
> >
> > << That is maybe an argument that goes in a general way, but if we take
> > the Belgium situation in more detail, I think you have to reconsider
> your
> > ideas.
>
> I'm just at the stage in my reading where the differences are starting to
> become
> apparent. A problem will be how much of the detail to work in. One of
> the
> dichotomies in legal theory is between theory's view of real life and real
> 'real
> life'. Even between legal theory and 'real laws' this is a problem. In
> legal
> theory there are many basic propositions about reality that are widely
> accepted
> amongst theorists but which are contradicted in reality. These have to be
> the
> starting point as a comparativist because that is the academic community I
> am
> in, but also because they are the public myths each system has about
> themselves. I'm interested in how public myths survive in societies even
> when
> they are contradicted by empirical evidence. An example - the American
> self-myth about themselves as the most democratic nation in the world -
> but
> there is evidence to suggest they aren't a democracy at all, at least in
> the way
> they see themselves. Outsiders can see a society's contradictions, which
> those
> within a society cannot.
>
> But stark theoretical oppositions are just theoretical, reality will
> always
> throw up contradictions. The challenge is to show the common law elements
> of
> civil law and the civil law elements of common law. Precedents are said
> to be
> important to common law but not so much to civil law, but it seems in
> reality
> the opposition is not so stark, precedents are important, for example in
> France,
> but they are treated in a different, less open way. Everyone knows its
> the
> reality, but its not talked about so much, its not a part of their
> self-myth.
> And there are differences in this regard amongst different European
> countries.
> When you compare the two systems then, in a global way and find
> similarities,
> you have to ask, 'what then does it mean to be a common law, or civil law
> system, if distinctions between them are blurred? Are the terms
> meaningful?
>
> Another important concept is the distinction between public discourse in
> the
> legal profession and private reality, national myths, as it were,
> contrasted
> with the beliefs of real citizens. Canada prides itself on being a
> thoroughly
> democratic country, but there are very strong indications that it's legal
> system
> reflects a strong authoritarian trait, that might be necessary to revert
> to
> should there be a separation crisis. Legally, its democracy is a bit of
> chimera. But this authoritarian trait is not discussed, because it's not
> a part
> of the national myth.
>
>
> > Of course, this is a personal view but IMO a common one in Belgium.
> > The general view is that the state is not our protector, it tries to be,
> but
> > on
> > the contrary, the state works against us. All of the scandals, murders
> etc
> > did and does undermind the states power. That is why, IMO we the Belgium
> > people are all hyper- individualists in a certain way and on the other
> hand
> > very
> > modest, conservative, afraid, suspicious and underhanded. Of course,
> there
> > is a difference between the Flemish side and the French speaking half of
> > the country... and that can answer your second part concerning the
> cultural
> > attitude towards the nature of truth.( See below)
> >
>
> I'll save this for future reference, its a good summary against which to
> weigh
> some of the more general statements that are made about Civilian values.
>
> Usually, characteristics like "afraid, suspicious, underhanded" don't form
> a
> part of a national self-myth. A joke Canadians sometimes make is that we
> have
> no national identity...nervous laughter usually follows.
>
> Even though, you describe yourselves as hyper-individualists, are you so
> when
> compared to North Americans, or would you just like to think you are?
> Belgium's part of the European social market, and the role envisaged for
> the
> state in health care, education , minimum wage, unemployment benefits etc
> is
> very collectivist, when compared to the US.
>
> > The Flemish side is catholic, conservative and right winged, the French
> > speaking half is social in nature and therefor more left winged, more
> open
> > but also more unquiet, more mischief makers,...at least the politicians.
> > And, IMO those two opposite belief systems play like you said a
> different
> > role towards truth and therefor the state 's truth.
> > And....not for nothing are " les compromis Belges " famous throughout
> the
> > world....even Canada have learned from us....Quebec, you know...
> >
>
> I'd like to read a good Belgian political history from about 1800 on. The
> very
> little I know strikes a strong chord with Canadian reality. Two
> languages, two
> nations, differing values, constitutional monarchy...bilingual
> legislation.
> Could you recommend one? I could read one in French, but would all French
> language histories of Belgium be one-sided?
>
> > In addition, Vincent and I did have also a discussion about American
> > Nationalism, maybe you can have a peek there....
> > The second area concerns cultural attitudes towards the nature of truth
> as
> > manifested in the each legal system.
>
> I'll look for this, thanks
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Douglas
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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