Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA23767 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:59:15 GMT Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745CE0@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Toggling nature's auto-erase Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:52:12 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Thanks for your response Robin.
I see whay you're saying, and whilst I wouldn't necessarily agree, I think
you may a cogent and reasonable argument here.
I won't say more in this post, as I see a sudden flurry of posts, so I'll
read those first, so's not to repeat other's comments.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Robin Faichney
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 4:06 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Toggling nature's auto-erase
>
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2001 at 12:24:02PM -0000, Vincent Campbell wrote:
> > >> Wade T.Smith wrote:
> > >> - to the point of which I have declared, manifesto-like, "To a
> > life
> > > >> without memes!" which, to me, is a utopian and ideal state...
> > >
> > <You might be surprised to learn that Sue Blackmore and I are in
> > complete
> > > agreement with you on that. Of course, we equate memelessness with
> > > Enlightenment, which you probably don't. But then, what does that
> tell
> > > us, other than that your concept of Enlightenment differs from ours?>
> > >
> > >
> > Call me a memebot if you like, but I'm suspicious of this kind of
> > view for a few reasons, which I'll pose as questions.
> >
> > First, is it really possible to be meme-free, and be a person
> > capable of social interaction? In other words does not being free of
> memes
> > does that not meme foregoing social interaction, which is inherently
> shaped
> > by the culture in which one lives?
>
> Here's where Wade and I might diverge (but very possibly not). My ideal
> state is not one in which my brain contains no encoded memes. It is one
> in which I cling to and/or identify with none of the memes in my mind.
> In other words, I don't "believe in" anything whatsoever. There are
> only working hypotheses. This brain is still full of memes, but none of
> them are particularly mine, and all have to prove their worth in purely
> practical terms. (I don't claim to have reached that exalted state yet,
> but I think I'm getting there, if slowly.)
>
> > Second, do people really mean they want to be meme-free, or only
> > free of those memes they don't like? For example, Blackmore talks a lot
> > about freeing oneself from memes whilst implicitly indicating her
> support
> > for buhhdism memes. Isn't that actually contradictory?
>
> I'm not sure Blackmore and I share a buddhism+memetics position that
> goes much deeper than the headline statements in my previous message.
> But Buddhists commonly realise the contradiction in saying one should not
> cling to anything, then clinging to Buddhism. The remedy is that one
> should be willing to let Buddhism go, ie hold it merely as a working
> hypothesis, as long as it works. This is not a "faith" as that's
> commonly conceived. Quite the reverse, in fact.
>
> > Third, the whole notion of freeing oneself from memes implies that
> > memes are universally malevolent, that they do harm to people, but is
> this
> > really the case? (I know this is a well worn area, but I think if people
> are
> > stating the aim to be meme-free, they need to demonstrate this.)
>
> I aim to be free of memes in the sense that they have no undue power
> over me, not in the sense that there are none in my mind. In fact, I
> almost concur with Dennett when he suggests that my mind is a memetic
> virtual machine (software) supported by genetically designed wetware.
> Which implies that without memes, there is no mind.
>
> > I think the only option is to critically examine everything we think
> > we believe and know, and to do so continually, and to treat challenges
> to
> > our beliefs and knowledge with due consideration. This does not mean
> that
> > we won't be subject to memes, but some of them may have positive social
> and
> > personal consequences. I don't see how anyone would actually benefit
> > personally or socially from being completely meme-free.
>
> Rationality is great as far as it goes, but don't forget the value
> of the emotions and spontaneity. My form of meme-freedom, unlike
> your's, is positively beneficial in emotional/psychological terms.
> (Much psychological "baggage" is in the form of beliefs, for instance
> that I'm not worth much, or that I've been unjustly treated, etc, etc)
> To test everything using the intellect is just not possible, but to
> become aware of and then let go of all kinds of beliefs is highly
> doable, though it takes time.
>
> > I suppose my arguments rest on the value of social interaction.
> > It's quite clear that we are a social species, and isolationism of any
> kind
> > would seem to me to deny an essential aspect of human existence. If
> being
> > part of a social system means being subject to memes then I'd rather
> have
> > that.
>
> I'm sure you're a highly sociable person, Vincent, but as I hope
> I've explained, there's no contradiction whatsoever between that and
> meme-freedom.
>
> --
> Robin Faichney
> Get your Meta-Information from http://www.ii01.org
> (CAUTION: contains philosophy, may cause heads to spin)
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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