Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id IAA11655 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:20:30 GMT From: <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 02:23:50 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Darwinian evolution vs memetic evolution Message-ID: <3A7F6036.30857.13156A9@localhost> References: <3A7E89B0.28777.2C98F6@localhost> In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102061335080.14562-100000@sushrut.sgpgi.ac.in> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 6 Feb 2001, at 13:40, Dr Able Lawrence wrote:
>
> Although influence of choice in selection of memes is undisputable
> ,choice preordained purpose is unacceptable in Darwinian evolution. To
> say that creation of man (I used creation because bringing about
> something in a planned fashion amunts to creation) was preordained
> with Big bang is preposterous.
>
Exactly what I was intending to do; bring out the preposterous
consequences of the proferred assumption.
>
> We must reiterate the basic preposition of evolution.
>
> Any replicating system with variation and selection can bring about
> evolution and rise in complexity. It is a process purely brought about
> by chance. It is far different from us humans designing and creating a
> city or a space station for example.
> Look at research on artificial life.
>
Bingo!
>
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> > On 5 Feb 2001, at 13:11, Robin Faichney wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:46:45PM -0000, Vincent Campbell wrote:
> > > > > Seeing free will or choice as the determinant of memes thus
> > > is not > the full picture.
> > >
> > > I think it's worth noting, even if you don't agree, that some,
> > > such as Blackmore, would suggest that it's memes that give (the
> > > illusion of) free will.
> > >
> > OTOH, some of us would maintain that symbiont memes increase
> > our range of choices, and therefore expand the options available to
> > an actually obtaining free will, and that memetic evolution being
> > any more robust than genetic evolution (and it must be, to supercede
> > it) requires conscious choice and direction, both as to the memes
> > engineered from existing memes, and as to the choice whether or not
> > to accept or reject proferred memes, rather than the random mutation
> > / natural selection scenario obtaining in genetics. The absurdity
> > of that entire everyone's-a-memebot argument is forcefully brought
> > home to us when we consider genetic engineering; by such logic it
> > must be unsuccessful, for it is a manifestation of realized
> > intention, which is impossible in the absence of free will. It
> > could not, therefore, operate any more rapidly than evolution, and
> > would in fact have to be just another roundabout kind of blind
> > mutational process, foreordained since the instant of the Big Bang
> > in a lockstep superdeterministic world. In fact, the entire reason
> > why we would develop the self-awareness we apodictically possess
> > would be unclear, since it would not be able to make a
> > reproductively effective difference in such a world, and the chances
> > of something so complex evolving in the absence of a use which
> > responded positively to environmental pressures would have to be
> > vanishingly small.
> > > --
> > > Robin Faichney
> > > robin@reborntechnology.co.uk
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> > > Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g.
> > > unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > =============================================================== This
> > was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of
> > Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For
> > information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see:
> > http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Dr Able Lawrence MD
> Senior Resident
> Clinical Immunology
> SGPGIMS, Lucknow
> able@sgpgi.ac.in
> Ph +91 98390 70247
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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