Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id XAA18250 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:07:22 GMT From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Labels for memes Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:04:58 -0800 Message-ID: <JJEIIFOCALCJKOFDFAHBOEIJCDAA.richard@brodietech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-reply-to: <20010130194202.A2584@reborntechnology.co.uk> Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Robin,
<<I noticed you sidestepped my request that you give a citation to back up
your claim that Dennett retracted his previous statement that memes have
one phase of their existence outside the brain.>>
I did not claim that Dennett retracted any statements and I don't think he
needs to. Memes do have one phase of their existence outside the brain, just
as genes have one phase of their existence outside the cell nucleus.
<<memes are items of
information. They are patterns, configurations of stuff, not stuff
in themselves. Were they things, actual stuff, to view them as being
confined to some particular place would make sense, but they're not, and
it doesn't.>>
Sure it does. For instance, an "inning" is a pattern, a configuration of
stuff, confined to a baseball diamond.
<< Where information is transmitted, that information is _not_
normally seen as existing only at each end of the transmission chain.
In fact, to do so is incoherent. No matter how complex its encoding, it
exists throughout the chain (at some point in time). It _has_ to do so,
in order to make it from one end to the other.>>
The information has to exist, but not the meme. The meme stays right in the
head of the ad exec for Budweiser. He pays someone to do a TV commercial, it
gets broadcast, information gets transmitted, and suddenly a million new
copies of the "Wazzuuuuup?" meme get created in new minds.
<< We are not talking about
things, which can be disassembled and reassembled, either from the same
parts or from identical ones. That kind of consideration is meaningless
when what we're talking about is items of information. Transformation of
information is encoding, and in encoded form, memes exist in patterns
of behaviour. It's that simple. I can't help the facts that Dawkins
doesn't view it this way, and we're not sure how Dennett views it now.
Unless you can come up with a criticism that goes beyond "mine is the
Dawkins/Dennett definition and your's is not" you'll have absolutely no
influence upon me, and little, I suspect, upon anyone else here.>>
All I do is, every time someone posts something confusing about the
definition of meme, is remind them what the definition actually is. It's a
mental replicator. If you want to talk about any replicator, use the word
"replicator."
<<...I'm saying imitated patterns of behaviour are identical with your
"mental replicators". Given an understanding of information, these are
precisely the same thing. And unless you deny that these are items of
information -- or just fall back on your argument from authority while
failing to address the actual issues -- you can't deny that.>>
Not all memes are behaviors, for example the classic "belief in God." All
memes are items of information, but not all items of information are memes.
And I think an argument from authority is entirely appropriate when
discussion what the accepted definition of a term is.
Please enlighten me, Robin, as to what the "actual issues" are, as I would
hate to fail to address them.
Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com www.memecentral.com
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