Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA05761 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:46:17 GMT Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745C0F@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: MIT research reports rats dream of mazes Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:45:08 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >> memetics is an evolutionary model of information transmission
>
<Yes I know but what if I have an idea that is transmissable, which
I never transmit,
> but which in every other respect is a meme (i.e. an informational unit in
> some
> sense)? Genetics is the study of inheritance and evolutionary change in
> alleles and
> their frequencies, but they have a concept of a gene which does not rely
> on
> transmission. Memes do not just exist in transmission, they are in your
> head. So my
> point (before I waffle on too much) was that 'potentially transmissable'
> should be
> enough.>
>
Well, I see what you're saying Chris, but I think this would be
contested by many. IMHO, If it isn't transmitted, it isn't a meme. The
distinction between a meme and any unshared idea, is precisely this
characteristic of transmission. A meme isn't simply a piece of information,
but a piece of_cultural_information, and indicates something that is (to
some degree) shared by others. And, unless one is talking about human
behaviour that is genetically determined (a la sociobiology), any other form
of shared information has to have been transmitted in some way between
individuals, whether verbally, visually, artefactually (is that a word? I
mean through objects) or some other means.
The issue of memes 'in the head' is perhaps the most coherent point
of discussion in memetics, with a largely clear division now between those
who support the memes in the head (sometimes called L-memes after Lynch's
'thought contagion' idea), and those who see memes as cultural artefacts-
things outside the brain, actually existing in culture (also called g-memes,
after Derek Gatherer, see his article in the JOM). There are others, of
course, who offer different positions, e.g. memes don't exist at all/aren't
needed to explain cultural evolution, or memes exist both in brains and in
culture. Check the archives for some of the discussions about this.
Personally, whilst I was originally attracted to memetics because of
the idea of religious beliefs being mind viruses (as an atheist ever
searching for reasons why even clever people believe strange things), I've
been basically persuaded by Gatherer's arguments. I must admit this is
partly due to my own interests, as examining cultural artefacts is a bit
more my territory than the cognitive psychology and neuroscience that seem
to me to be central to the 'memes in the brain' idea.
'Potentially transmissable' wouldn't be enough then, IMHO, because
unless it resulted in some kind of expression that could be seen/heard it
wouldn't get passed on to anyone else, and wouldn't be a meme.
> Does the concept of the gene not require transmission? I'm no biologist,
> but that doesn't sound quite right to me, perhaps transmission isn't quite
> the right word in biological terms.
>
Vincent
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