Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA24022 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:50:06 GMT Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:23:29 +0000 To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: DNA Culture .... Trivia? Message-ID: <20010117152329.A11194@reborntechnology.co.uk> References: <200101161427.JAA13879@mail0.lig.bellsouth.net>; <20010116152130.A1179@reborntechnology.co.uk> <200101171351.IAA01093@mail2.lig.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.12i In-Reply-To: <200101171351.IAA01093@mail2.lig.bellsouth.net>; from joedees@bellsouth.net on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 07:56:38AM -0600 From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 07:56:38AM -0600, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> Date sent: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:21:30 +0000
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: DNA Culture .... Trivia?
> From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk>
> Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
> > On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 08:33:30AM -0600, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Now, how about accepting that the most elegant solution to the L/G
> > > > dichotomy is to view memes as items of information that are differently
> > > > _encoded_ in both brain states and behaviours?
> > > >
> > > I don't see a dichotomy, as I don't see L memes and G memes as
> > > mutually contradictory, but rather as the complementary stages of
> > > a meme's life cycle. The moment either disappears, the meme is
> > > (eventually) doomed. If it lives inside one's mind but one forbears
> > > to express it, it dies when the inexpressive carrier dies. If it is
> > > expressed by that mind but never absorbed by others, it still dies
> > > when the unconvincing carrier dies. It must go, as Mama's
> > > squeezebox does (the Who), in..and out..and in..and out..etc.
> >
> > Yes, L and G are complementary stages, but of what, exactly? What is
> > this unitary meme that has these different forms? I say it is an item
> > of information that has different encodings.
> >
> Sure it's information, but more than that, it is meaningful
> information; its meaning (what it is) corresponds with its utility
> (what it does). Information bereft of meaning could not establish
> and exploit a niche in the meaningful gestalt which is its cognitive
> environment. it must be assimilated to and assimilate, and
> accommodate itself to and accommodate, that environment, that is
> to say, that it must at one and the same time adapt itself to that
> environment and adapt that environment to itself. Since the
> informational environment is a meaningful one, so must our entity
> be in order to effect this assimilative/accommodative adaptation.
This marks the end of our mutual agreeability. My view is very much
simpler than that, and, I believe, more meaningful too. It can be
stated without using self-referential (or any other sort of) jargon.
But it is radically different both from your view, and from the
conventional assumptions regarding mind, matter, information, and the
relationships between these. I have tried to explain it on this list,
and in particular to you, previously[1], and I don't see that anything
significant has changed, so I'm not going to bother doing so again now.
I will try to bear with fortitude the possibility that some people will
assume my view to be without substance. ;-)
[1] I recall with wry amusement your rejection of the use of the concept
of information in physics. If you are willing to reconsider that,
then there _might_ be some chance of further productive dialog.
-- Robin Faichney robin@reborntechnology.co.uk=============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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