Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id QAA24275 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:03:48 GMT Message-Id: <200101171601.LAA13193@mail5.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:06:49 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: DNA Culture .... Trivia? In-reply-to: <20010117152329.A11194@reborntechnology.co.uk> References: <200101171351.IAA01093@mail2.lig.bellsouth.net>; from joedees@bellsouth.net on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 07:56:38AM -0600 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Date sent: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:23:29 +0000
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: DNA Culture .... Trivia?
From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk>
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 07:56:38AM -0600, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> > Date sent: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:21:30 +0000
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: DNA Culture .... Trivia?
> > From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk>
> > Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >
> > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 08:33:30AM -0600, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, how about accepting that the most elegant solution to the L/G
> > > > > dichotomy is to view memes as items of information that are differently
> > > > > _encoded_ in both brain states and behaviours?
> > > > >
> > > > I don't see a dichotomy, as I don't see L memes and G memes as
> > > > mutually contradictory, but rather as the complementary stages of
> > > > a meme's life cycle. The moment either disappears, the meme is
> > > > (eventually) doomed. If it lives inside one's mind but one forbears
> > > > to express it, it dies when the inexpressive carrier dies. If it is
> > > > expressed by that mind but never absorbed by others, it still dies
> > > > when the unconvincing carrier dies. It must go, as Mama's
> > > > squeezebox does (the Who), in..and out..and in..and out..etc.
> > >
> > > Yes, L and G are complementary stages, but of what, exactly? What is
> > > this unitary meme that has these different forms? I say it is an item
> > > of information that has different encodings.
> > >
> > Sure it's information, but more than that, it is meaningful
> > information; its meaning (what it is) corresponds with its utility
> > (what it does). Information bereft of meaning could not establish
> > and exploit a niche in the meaningful gestalt which is its cognitive
> > environment. it must be assimilated to and assimilate, and
> > accommodate itself to and accommodate, that environment, that is
> > to say, that it must at one and the same time adapt itself to that
> > environment and adapt that environment to itself. Since the
> > informational environment is a meaningful one, so must our entity
> > be in order to effect this assimilative/accommodative adaptation.
>
> This marks the end of our mutual agreeability. My view is very much
> simpler than that, and, I believe, more meaningful too. It can be
> stated without using self-referential (or any other sort of) jargon.
>
> But it is radically different both from your view, and from the
> conventional assumptions regarding mind, matter, information, and the
> relationships between these. I have tried to explain it on this list,
> and in particular to you, previously[1], and I don't see that anything
> significant has changed, so I'm not going to bother doing so again now.
> I will try to bear with fortitude the possibility that some people will
> assume my view to be without substance. ;-)
>
> [1] I recall with wry amusement your rejection of the use of the concept
> of information in physics. If you are willing to reconsider that,
> then there _might_ be some chance of further productive dialog.
>
We have points of agreement, and points of disagreement, like any
other two people who are not cognitive clones. Information, per se,
is not necessarily meaningful, and meaningless information, and
meaningful information some meaning of which cannot be grasped
by the potential recipient, are in my view, poor candidates for
memetic propagation.
> --
> Robin Faichney
> robin@reborntechnology.co.uk
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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