Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA00623 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:20:44 +0100 Message-Id: <200010100115.VAA07930@mail4.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:19:57 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: the conscious universe: subjectivity/objectivity of beliefs In-reply-to: <008401c03206$1b23d6a0$9863b8d0@default> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: "Lawrence de Bivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: the conscious universe: subjectivity/objectivity of beliefs
Date sent: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:32:12 -0400
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> From: Joe E. Dees <joedees@bellsouth.net>
>
> Lawrence:
> > > The neural basis of ideas, I would suggest, is no more significant for
> memes
> > > than it is for non-memetic ideas, and so I find the neural elements of
> memes
> > > not particularly or intrinsically interesting when it comes to studying
> > > memes and their workings.
>
> Joe:
> > The difference is one of perspective - first-person vs. third-person -
> > upon the same phenomenon. My ideas are objective to me, as
> > they are objects of my mental attention/intention. That which is
> > called subjective is objective to the subject. There is no absolute
> > objectivity; only intersubjective agreement.
>
> Yes, agreed. In my classes, I use the term "subjective reality" to refer to
> the internal processes of perceiving, pattern-recognition, thinking and
> decision-making. This is as 'real' to the individual as anything, yet is so
> intensely idiosyncratic to that individual that it appears 'subjective' to
> observers of that individual. One of my interests is how, then, the observer
> can himself perceive and understand what is going on in another person's
> "subjective reality." We see each other through the lenses of our own
> "subjective realities." We can reduce the degree of falsifying subjectivity
> by listening and observing with greater skill and a wider range of
> distinctions, and we can make better sense of it all -- get a better sense
> of the structure of another person's subjective reality -- with better
> models of what goes on when another person thinks, makes judgements, and
> makes decisions.
>
The difference I draw between subjective (objective to one subject)
and intersubjective (objective to more than one subject) is the
same one I draw between L-memes and G-memes; the first is
within, the second between.
>
> - Lawrence
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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