Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA15810 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:21:52 +0100 Message-ID: <39BFDF9E.A5A2C363@clara.co.uk> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:12:14 +0100 From: Douglas Brooker <dbrooker@clara.co.uk> Organization: University of London X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: solipsistic view on memetics References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745A06@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
A few comments stimulated by your observations
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> Do you put the term intellectual in quote marks only in relation to the
> western tradition, and if so why?
Well, no it wasn't intended to suggest that, only that what might in some
theoretical consensus be classified as 'intellectual' is a little tip of an ice
berg founded on really embedded (and very emotion-based) cultural assumptions.
My interest is how the relationship of self to collective varies from society to
society and determines the kinds of questions we permit ourselves to ask in
certain (intellectual) situations. The derogatory use of the term 'mystical'
in 'intellectual' circles just serves to establish a them-us relationship
between two equally imprecise categories of ideas. What is compelling about
some aspects of memetics is that it appears to formulate a theoretical structure
for the dynamic of collective thought which is lacking in societies whose
language structure reflects a strong bias towards individual-specific
discourse. (Waiting for the Freud of the collective mind to appear). The cross
fertilisation between 'mystic' ideas (not 'mystic charlatans') seems similar to
physics-'mystic' cross fertilisation that has occurred in recent years.
> I assume you're implying
Am trying not to have too much personal baggage, or at least to be able to
identify it and consider the ways in which its invisible hand creates
conclusions about ideas or situations that do not require conclusions. This is
an interesting thought process, -'assuming someone is implying' but I don't know
what to say about it.
> What I find very interesting is the way that so many westerners who reject
> the intellectual traditions of the west in favour of the east- even when
> they have been to the east (often glowing about its virtues beyond anything
> the west can offer)- tend to ignore the major holes in eastern practices
> that they can't quite get their heads round.
This is a universal urge of collective identity whether one is embracing
(defending) or rejecting one's birth group or groups.
> Now let me see if I can think of an example.... oh yes how about the caste
> system? What a wonderful way to treat people (over 100 million are
> untouchables in India today was the last figure I saw) and entirely
> substantiated and justified by eastern religious traditions.
There is not much conceptual difference between the Hindu caste system and
Western social hierarchies or even other non-Hindi hierarchies in India,
Bangladesh or Pakistan.
> The reasons 'mystic' has such poor connotations are very good ones
My interest is more anthropological - the emotional connotations collective
thought imputes to alien ideas to confer this evil virus status upon them.
> - mystics gain their status and power from taking advantage of, and
> maintaining, human
> ignorance and humans' psychological and emotional weaknesses. They make a
> mockery of cause and effect, bleed money by the sackload from people all
> over the world, and in many regards can be very simply demonstrated to be
> either completely wrong or deliberately faking it.
This could equally be applied to commodity mysticism (a la Guy Debord), a kind
of 'cargo cult' well on the way to becoming the universal religion.
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