Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA18235 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:29:49 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D310174598D@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: changing threads Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:27:36 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Hi Kenneth, I hope your holiday was good. [the 'holiday' is a pretty good
meme isn't it? Particularly the 'holiday abroad' meme]
Again, interesting ideas here. I've not seen this particular Chomsky book
myself, but its hypothesis sounds interesting. It sounds a little like
Edward Said's stuff on 'Orientalism', whereby a particular image of the
orient became established in occidental culture that enabled exploitation of
the east by the west. Certainly there are memes in there, just as
missionaries believe they are saving the souls of the barbarians/heathens
etc.
I read a newspaper article the other day which was an historical piece about
efforts of christian missionaries in central and northern China at the time
of the Boxer rebellion (they all got massacred basically, apart from one or
two men and women who got out early). Their efforts, before the uprising,
weren't that successful mainly because in their zeal they referred to the
beliefs and customs of the native chinese as satanic and demonic etc. etc.,
and this antagonised the locals with eventually fatal results.
Of course, Europe (as in the EU) is full of concerns now about
Americanisation in its various forms (McDonaldisation for the business
practices, Coca-cola-isation, or Disneyfication for culture etc. etc.).
Many countries around the world are concerned about how economic dominance
ensures that US media images proliferate whilst native cultures are eroded,
and so on.
Howard Bloom argues, quite cynically perhaps, that one of the inherent
problems of Africa, and other parts of the developing world is that the real
beneficiaries of aid programmes are not the poor nations but the rich ones.
The poor nations do not like having to rely on hand outs (who ever does?),
in part because aid is an overt reminder of the pecking order, and their low
position on it, which is precisely the reason why rich nations like giving
aid becuase it reminds them they are on top (but not so much or in such a
way that allows poor nations to actually overcome their status). A case in
point would be EU-aid to the latin american victims of hurricane Mitch-
they've not received a penny yet, and a leaked report the other day suggests
that EU-aid on average takes 4 years to reach the people it's intended for.
(BTW, I'm not anti-EU politically, which is unusual since I'm British :-)).
I think I might of mentioned it the other day, but there does seem to be
something in the notion of the 'nation', if we accept Benedict Anderson's
notion of the nation as an 'imagined community', that is inherently memetic.
And, of course, when those memes result in, or are associated with, some
kinds of collective behaviours the consequences can be appalling. Taking us
back to the Boxer rebellion, after all this only arose because of the way
the European powers were carving up China in an inherent perception of their
superiority to the Chinese. The Chinese had let their own technological
development slide after their perception of superiority had led them to
isolationism, starting back in the 15th Century when they destroyed their
own sailing fleets having decided there was nothing in the outside world
better than in China, so why bother with the outside world.
more wild imaginings...
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Kenneth Van Oost
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2000 5:02 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Memes and sexuality
>
> Vincent, I suppose we let the tread about sexuality rest...!?
>
> > In the USA, incidents like these happen almost daily- socially
> significant
> > ones that is, not specifically child murder (although that is high in
> the
> > US). From OJ to Rodney King, from Waco to the Oklahoma bomb, from
> Jonbenet
> > Ramsey to Elian Gonzalez etc. etc. What we see there is mix of
> increasing
> > fundamentalism of all kinds (growth of movements like the Christian
> > coalition, mormons, amish, nation of islam, militias, executions etc.),
> > increasingly empty conservatism in the mainstream (Bore or Gush, excuse
> me,
> > Gore or Bush),
>
> << and increasing cynicism amongst everyone else (lower and
> > lower voter turnouts in presidential elections for example). When
> people
> > ask what's going on in America, we could say, don't blame them, they're
> just
> > memetically challenged.
>
> There is an interesting book, it just came out at least here, of Noam
> Chomsky
> about issues you mentioned.
> The book is called (Dutch title) The True Face Of Uncle Sam.
> And in the light of the discussion going on about hymenoepimecis, the re-
> semblance between what Chomsky is writing and that little animal struck
> me.
> Let me explain.
>
> Chomsky analyse official documents and looks at the results of their
> content.
> What Chomsky cites belongs to the world of thought of the moderate
> American policy makers.
> That those documents are not a secret, but things that everyone could find
> if they had the will to look for it, is alarming.
> So can we read that Europe had to be built up again at the cost of Africa.
> This continent had to be " exploited " , not because the money was needed
> for the old continent, but also because a poor Africa should be a ' moral
> support ' for the flat bombarded Europeans.
> That in America noone thinks to make those papars public is also
> meaningfull.
> Capitalism has apparently reached a phase wherein repression and lies are
> superfluous. The state don 't have to bother at all to cover up its
> subversive
> deeds anymore_the people is simply not interested !!
> (Marnix Verplancke/ Filosofie Magazine )
>
> Like you said Vincent, people are trying in many ways to run lesser risks.
> One of those ways is to make sure that a man like Dutroux does not run
> loose, what the victims are concerned_we don 't care.
> We are becoming more (ego)istic then selfish. And yes, I do make a dis-
> tinction there!!
>
> But, a few observations did strike me like lighting here, though!!
>
> Africa is been exploited so that we Europeans could have a clear start in
> life?
> Well, welcome to the wonderful world of memetic engineering !! What a
> meme_applying a set of techniques to outline the bias for treating people
> 's
> mind! What would that have meant for our parents !?
> We can easily sketch up a profile of how our parents got their ' input'
> !!
>
> The notion alone that there was plenty of help, enough money,...heaven
> send, would have trigged an enormous positive respons !
> Really, with a plan like that, we were pushed at the right buttons. I
> imagine the impact of such sort of things !!
> We have been given the chance of creating effivictive memes, to make
> changes, to " correct " the course of history and to generate a culture
> again.
>
> We are all ' INFECTED '( we the Europeans that is ) by memes which were
> aimed at the issue, not at our personalities. Those memes discarded the
> intelligence, the emotional and the psychological dispositions of our
> parents !
> They changed the Self image at top speed and I should be glad for that, I
> suppose...but now that I know that, and I see the shape where Africa is in
> today...well...
>
> Knowing this mush, I can 't get the post of Mark M. Mills out of my mind
> (the larvae hatch and a few weeks later injects something into the
> spider...)
>
> Derek Gatherer, don 't thinks there was a meme there, because there was
> nothing cultural...right he was.
>
> I ain 't gonna get fancy_but the above, about Africa etc...does that not
> boils down to the same principle used...!?
> Did the USA not ' injected ' us with memes which were not ' right ' at
> the
> time and in result did we not spin a cultural web that is not really ours
> !?
> I mean, was that not against what then was memetical known...or in a wider
> view...against the European genetic make up !?
>
> If the USA did not had treated us with preference what would be the
> Europe of today !?
>
> I wonder...!!
>
>
> Many regards,
>
> Kenneth
>
> ( I am, because we are)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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