Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id QAA11351 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 7 Aug 2000 16:04:05 +0100 Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 08:02:57 -0700 From: Bill Spight <bspight@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: chimps at Blair Drummond To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Message-id: <398ECFA1.640EA5AC@pacbell.net> Organization: Saybrook Graduate School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-PBI-NC404 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: ja,en References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D310174596C@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Dear Vincent,
> Chimps in Madras zoo live in a very large island surrounded by a moat. I
> was chatting with the keeper on one side of the moat when a chimp ran
> towards the edge of the island where we were making frantic sounds and
> gestures. He (or she) then seemed to beckon us to follow him around as he
> ran towards the other side of the island.
>
> Having got there he reached for a large red stone and, to our amazement,
> threw it at a vendor standing and grinning on the other side! The chimp
> seemed very agitated, jumping up and down screaming. Seeing our
> amazed expression one of the people in the vicinity came and told us what
> had happened: The vendor had apparently hurled the red stone at
> the chimp a few minutes earlier to tease him. Infuriated, the chimp had
> come to "complain" to the Keeper and had done so by beckoning him to
> his region of the island and throwing the red stone back at the vendor,
> either as "revenge" or to "tell" the keeper what had happened. Perhaps this
> episode had made me read more into Povinelli's earlier experiments than I
> should have! (And perhaps there is a simple, less "anthropomorphic"
> explanation of the Chimp's behavior). But my personal feeling is that the
> question of Apes modelling other minds is still open despite Povinelli's
> retreat
>
There is a "chimpocentric" explanation, I believe. We know that chimps in
the wild war on other primates. This one may have been getting some support
before retaliating. Modeling other minds is not necessary to explain his
behavior in social terms.
Best,
Bill
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