Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA19114 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:54:45 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31017458DC@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:53:00 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Check 'The Skeptic' magazine online's archives for an excellent piece on
just how problematic the notion of 'subliminal' programming is (the context
of the article is the Judas Priest trial). I'll try and track down the
specific article myself, as I can't remember the author of the top of my
head.
The kinds of effects you're talking about how not been demonstrated
consistenly or routinely in some 70 years worth of media effects studies
(some would say not at all, and I admit to being one of those, but it is a
very contested issue in media studies). I have made this point on several
occasions on this list, so I won't bore people with it again (If you want a
good analysis of the issues though, you could read David Gauntlett's Moving
Experiences: Understanding Television's Influences and Effects, 1995,
London: John Libbey).
I'm a bit bemused by lots of references about hypnosis going back and forth
on this list. I had though that hypnosis was widely derided in scientific
communities, as it produces things like memories of past lives, alien
abductions, ritual satanic abuse, and the spontaneous emergence of multiple
personalities?
There is simply no way NLP programmes can work, except one- and that is the
use of chemicals (i.e. drugs) to make subjects compliant. Using
'representations systems', does not produce direct causal impacts on
behaviour. This is well known, has been empirically demonstrated, and is
widely accepted in media scholarship. People's compliance with things they
are exposed to though media are reliant on an immensely complex number of
contextual factors, preventing manipulation or prediction of audiences'
subsequent behaviour. One of the core factors, and something we have
touched upon on this list before, is the qualiative difference between
information received through interpersonal and mediated communications.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Chris Lofting
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 2:34 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Vincent Campbell
> > Sent: Wednesday, 21 June 2000 10:23
> > To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> > Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth
> >
> >
> > > Have a look at some of the NLP material (NeuroLinguistic Programming).
> > > Much
> > > has been dressed up in some fancy terms but the basics are
> > valid, i.e. use
> > > of representations systems based on sensory biases (vision, audition,
> > > kinesthetics, gustatory, olfactory -- all analogue based) and the
> a-to-d
> > > conversion to language. Establishing rapport and creating a
> > slight trance
> > > state and then delivering the message. Advertising companies,
> > sales teams,
> > > and political groups are getting into this.
> > >
> > > Different persona types will respond in different ways but these can
> be
> > > mapped and so we can create algorithms used to target a persona group
> or
> > > an
> > > individual without their knowing or permission.
> > >
> > > The system 'works' since they use the layering of dichotomisations and
> > > that
> > > sets off resonances 'in here'. Most have no idea what they are dealing
> > > with -- unfortunate but then the attitude is 'who cares, we are making
> > > money!'. They are into the expression rather than what is behind that
> > > expression, which is what memetics is about.
> > >
> > > Some of the material is dangerous in that I can easily send someone
> home
> > > with mental 'gun' if I am not careful about how I do things.
> > >
> > I'm not usually driven to make comments like this, but I'm sorry this is
> > utter rubbish. If you can do all this how come you're not king of the
> > world?
> >
>
> (0) I wouldnt be the only one and so we get into relationall space, this
> said I think you may have misunderstood my terminology in that ....
>
> (1) as i said to wade, the 'I' is a general not a particular, replace it
> with 'you' or 'one' etc
>
> (2) you seem to link these sorts of abilities with an immediate claim to
> power. Not my way. I work local as does the above gun. that said most
> motivation courses etc use a lot of NLP so perhaps there are some who will
> go for the power. I have no NEED for this sort of power game, I am fine
> where I am (bit more money could help but then I am working on that). If
> you
> had some sort of ability like those mentioned you would go for the power?
> yes?
>
> I suppose my early background in music/showbiz put me off this sort of
> material, I am not interested in the expression but more what is behind it
> since I well understand the bullshit that goes on. (Want 'power'? getup
> infront of 40000+ people and get rapport and watch them sway, it is a buzz
> and I am sure some cant get enough but to me it is just a gig and a bit of
> fun. Gave all of that up many years ago, prefer to 'dig' and uncover what
> the hell is going on 'in here'.)
>
> (3) if i can put you into a light trance and sell you on the idea of 'you
> participating in lifting the nation to 'new' heights' wouldnt you like to
> be
> aware of this or would you prefer just to 'obey orders', 'go with the
> flow',
> claim that there is no subliminal programming at work?
>
> (4) if i/one/you etc teach you these methods without any controls,
> checks/balances you are happy with that? you support the NRA do you?
>
> Most NLP organisations seem to have some ethics but there are many who do
> not and do not see that this sort of mental training is the same as giving
> someone a gun. The point is that you can kill minds as well as bodies and
> if
> you are going to refine the methods of doing this (as NLP can do) you do
> need some checks and balances.
>
> best,
>
> Chris.
>
>
> >
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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