Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA17919 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:25:04 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31017458D8@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:23:15 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Have a look at some of the NLP material (NeuroLinguistic Programming).
> Much
> has been dressed up in some fancy terms but the basics are valid, i.e. use
> of representations systems based on sensory biases (vision, audition,
> kinesthetics, gustatory, olfactory -- all analogue based) and the a-to-d
> conversion to language. Establishing rapport and creating a slight trance
> state and then delivering the message. Advertising companies, sales teams,
> and political groups are getting into this.
>
> Different persona types will respond in different ways but these can be
> mapped and so we can create algorithms used to target a persona group or
> an
> individual without their knowing or permission.
>
> The system 'works' since they use the layering of dichotomisations and
> that
> sets off resonances 'in here'. Most have no idea what they are dealing
> with -- unfortunate but then the attitude is 'who cares, we are making
> money!'. They are into the expression rather than what is behind that
> expression, which is what memetics is about.
>
> Some of the material is dangerous in that I can easily send someone home
> with mental 'gun' if I am not careful about how I do things.
>
I'm not usually driven to make comments like this, but I'm sorry this is
utter rubbish. If you can do all this how come you're not king of the
world?
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Chris Lofting
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 2:43 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Dan Plante
> > Sent: Tuesday, 20 June 2000 7:42
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth
> >
> >
> >
> > Chris: I pretty much agree with all that you said below (which is more
> or
> > less what you've been saying for quite a while now, of course), mostly
> > because it underscores what I've said for years as well, but at a higher
> > level of abstraction (you must be right because you have the same
> > opinion I
> > do ;-).
> >
>
> :-)
>
> > A small portion of it I'm not sure I follow - I'll have to sleep
> > on it then
> > read it again. Also, the waypoint rationale seems a little contrived to
> me
> > ..... maybe I'm wrong, but why couldn't the basis for this be even more
> > primal, and adapted for waypoint mapping purposes later on?
>
> This would not surprise me but my emphasis is on a more or less direct
> path
> we can link from reptile-linked territorial marking/mapping
> (characteristics
> tied to the RAS and the more primitive parts of our brain where the
> absolute
> 'in here'/'out there' distinction seems to be made) and the development of
> syntax at the neocortical level.
>
> We are combining reptilian/amphibian behaviours with mammalian behavours
> (hippocampus activity whilst rats run a maze suggesting waypoint mapping
> in
> progress) to neo-mammalian behaviours, Demasio et al discovery of a
> distinct
> feeling whos source is in the left hemisphere related to syntax
> processing.(there is a bias here and so the location is more in 'that part
> of the brain that processes objects' rather than 'that part of the brain
> that processes relationships').
>
> The emphasis is the linking of the points to map a territory and how it is
> easy to see the abstraction of this leading to the emergence of syntax
> processing.
>
> (I have noticed with a lot of girlfriends, and I have done this
> unconsciously myself, where the exboyfriends always manages to leave
> something at the girl's place. It seems to manifest territorial marking,
> still present but a little more subtle these days :-) a pair of gloves on
> a
> table rather than urinating on the door.)
>
> Maybe an even
> > more primitive aquatic organism had a proto-limbic food/not-food or
> > mate/not-mate response system to visual cues or even chemical
> > markers, that
> > later synergistically reacted to some other mutation(s) that proved to
> be
> > dynamically stable because their phenotypic expression fed back as a
> > waypointing advantage?
>
> reasonable (as in not too much of an exageration to bring out a point
> :-)).
> I suppose the fact that the territory marking is strongly emphasised in
> reptiles (to the extant that we often refer to individuals who behave in
> this way as being reptilian in thought i.e. either-or, single context,
> self-oriented with a drive to assert their context over everyone elses)
> sets
> a sort of 'start' position within a development continuum that does in
> someway go back to pre-biotic etc.
> but the 'start' is an emergent property, Batson's "difference that makes a
> difference".
> >
> > On the other hand, I guess we could keep leap-frogging emergent
> > dependancies all the way back to the pre-biotic (or even further), so
> the
> > point is probably moot, especially since testing the validity of your
> > analyses does not require it, from what I can tell.
> >
> > By the way, I've also had an enduring interest in the MBTI system, and
> > others of its ilk. I also understand that more current, and
> > presumably more
> > accurate hybrid systems exist. These, along with a vector-math treatment
> > are, I think, one half of the key to constructing a predictive model of
> > social-memes. Do you have any current link-lists for these newer
> systems?
> > Do you know if the algorithms are available for us common folk or are
> they
> > proprietary? Any help would be appreciated.
> >
>
> Have a look at some of the NLP material (NeuroLinguistic Programming).
> Much
> has been dressed up in some fancy terms but the basics are valid, i.e. use
> of representations systems based on sensory biases (vision, audition,
> kinesthetics, gustatory, olfactory -- all analogue based) and the a-to-d
> conversion to language. Establishing rapport and creating a slight trance
> state and then delivering the message. Advertising companies, sales teams,
> and political groups are getting into this.
>
> Different persona types will respond in different ways but these can be
> mapped and so we can create algorithms used to target a persona group or
> an
> individual without their knowing or permission.
>
> The system 'works' since they use the layering of dichotomisations and
> that
> sets off resonances 'in here'. Most have no idea what they are dealing
> with -- unfortunate but then the attitude is 'who cares, we are making
> money!'. They are into the expression rather than what is behind that
> expression, which is what memetics is about.
>
> Some of the material is dangerous in that I can easily send someone home
> with mental 'gun' if I am not careful about how I do things.
>
> Best,
>
> Chris.
>
> >
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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