Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA12997 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:35:42 +0100 From: "Chris Lofting" <ddiamond@ozemail.com.au> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:49:52 +1000 Message-ID: <LPBBICPHCJJBPJGHGMCIOENGCGAA.ddiamond@ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20000620160459.AAA22177@camailp.harvard.edu@[128.103.125.215]> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Wade T.Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, 21 June 2000 2:04
> To: memetics list
> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth
>
>
> On 06/20/00 11:30, Chris Lofting said this-
>
> >Have a look at ANY modern NLP text
>
> Well, therein is my problem, you see. Because I also look at places like
> this - http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html and I'm not ready to get past the
> type of bullshit I presently perceive NLP to be.
>
well, if you are not ready then you are not ready, however if you ever feel
that you are then below is a copy of the reference list off one of my
websites. I find no problem with the comments on the above link, as I kept
saying in my last post there is a lot of bullshit around but get behind it
and there are some interesting areas especially in the area of hypnosis and
in particular light trance creation etc
Your wording suggests some sort of fear that you may be sucked-in, I think
you are smart enough to avoid that and intuitive enough (as are most on this
list) to notice the 'interesting' elements that do seem to have some value
in themselves or else 'point' to material of value.
> So, yeah, I really _do_ want a smoking gun, and so far, anecdotes and
> papers by self-interested (hence my "specious claim of ego-biased
> influence-peddling") practitioners ain't offered me one.
>
well, I am not a formal practitioner I just take a pragmatic viewpoint and
use what seems valid rather than an idealist viewpoint and reject it
outright based on reading an article about the institution of NLP rather
than the content; I am not interested in the institution and the squables of
Bandler and Grinder etc, as I said before, they dont know what they are
dealing with in that they have not gone into detailed analysis of
neurosciences (whereas I have and so I CAN see the links to some of the
work). Some of Robert Dilt's work is of interest in the area of changing
belief systems and he has looked at some neurology (not much but still he
did make the effort).
Some work in the area of how we encode time is also of interest (called
timeline therapy, I am interested in some of cognitive processes that seemed
to emerge from some of this work in differences in how we store time vs
persona types etc etc)
Leslie Bandler (ex wife of R Bandler) has recently done some interesting
work with emotions and language etc noting patterns that, for example,
distinguish the experience of hope vs that of anticipation (the only
difference is the stance, hope is reactive, anticipation is proactive all
other aspects seem constant thus to get people to change their stance you
focus on the transformation of the reactive/proactive dichotomy only). Her
book is "The Emotional Hostage".
Here is a list, not up-to-date but the original texts circa 1977 are:
Bandler and Grinder "The Structure of Magic" Vol I and II as well as
Bandler anf Grinder "Patterns: The Hypnotic Techniques of Milton Erickson"
Vol I and II
Reference List:
Heller, S., & Steele, T.,(1987) "Monsters and Magical Sticks" Falcon
Press. an 'outside the box' book covers NLP hypnosis.
Bandler & Grinder (1975) "The Structure of Magic" Scientific Books.
Bandler & Grinder (1977) "The Structure of Magic Volume II" Scientific
Books.
Bandler & Grinder (1975) "Patterns I - Hypnotic Techniques of M.Erickson"
Meta Publications
Bandler & Grinder (1977) "Patterns II" Meta Publications
Bandler & Grinder (1979) "Frogs into Princes" Meta Publications.
Bandler & MacDonald (1988) "An Insider's Guide To Sub-Modalities" Meta
Publications.
(interesting area, deals with refined analysis of sensory modes and playing
with them to change experiences)
Nadel,Haims, & Stempson (1990) "Sixth Sense" Prentice Hall Press.
(general NLP text produced from outside of the NLP community)
Cameron-Bandler & Lebeau (1986) "The Emotional Hostage" FuturePace.
(nice work on emotions.)
Dilts (1983) "Applications of NLP" Meta Publications.
Dilts (1983) "Roots of NLP" Meta Publications.
(set of essays covering (a) analysis of plato/socrates use of disseminating
info etc etc (b) some science work that favours the approach, out of date
now but ok at a general level)
Dilts (1990) "Changing Belief Systems with NLP" Meta Publications.
Dilts.R.,Hallbom,T.,& Smith,S., (1990) "Beliefs: Pathways to Health and
Well-Being" Metamorphous Press.
(interesting set of books, prefer the former to the latter, adds precision
to belief system changing)
Dilts (1991) "Tools for Dreamers" Meta Publications.
(There is also a set of books produced by Dilts over the last few years on
'creative individuals, I think in 3 volumes and covers Freud, Einstein etc
etc etc)
Jacobson,S., (1983) "Meta-Cation" Meta Publications.
Jacobson,S., (1986) "Meta-Cation Volume II" Meta Publications.
Jacobson,S., (1986) "Meta-Cation Volume III" Meta Publications.
(the above three deal with NLP used in education and there are a number of
other texts to get into this and there are a number of education collages
using NLP material both in the US and here in Australia)
James,T., & Woodsmall,W., (1988) "Time Line Therapy and the Basis of
Personality" Meta Publications.
James,T., (1989) "The Secret of Creating Your Future" Advanced Neuro
Dynamics.Hawaii.
(the above two are timeline related. second one is a bit 'new age' but
behind all of the words are some areas of interest)
Andreas, C & S (1989) "Heart of the Mind" Real People Press
There are a few texts that link NLP with Enneagram work (another typology
that has a strong dynamic element, very 'big' in some religious/spritual
development schools etc)
Additional Background material:
Bateson,G., (1972) "Steps to an Ecology of Mind" Ballentine.
Bateson,G., (1980) "Mind and Nature: a necessary unity" Bantam.
Bateson,G., & Bateson M., (1987) "Angels Fear" Rider.
Hall,E.T., (1969) "The Hidden Dimension" Doubleday Anchor.
Hall,E.T., (1973) "The Silent Language" Doubleday Anchor.
Hall,E.T., (1977) "Beyond Culture" Doubleday Anchor.
Hall,E.T., (1984) "The Dance of Life" Doubleday Anchor.
Korzybski ? (1930) "Science and Sanity" ... (See any General Semantics
website for details)
see also works of Fritz Perls, Virginia Satir (she did a book with B and G
as well) as well as General Semantics and transformational grammar (Chomsky,
touched on in S of Magic I and II where the deep structure/surface structure
concept and the deletions, distortions, generalisations concepts are
introduced)
Later texts (last year etc) include works of Michael Hall that takes in
General Semantics concepts and timeline work. Most modern texts rehash or
refine the material in the original texts, Joseph O'Connor in the UK has
done a lot of work and has written an intro to NLP that seems to have done
well, see
O'Connor, J & Seymour J (1990)"Introducing Neuro-Linguistic Programming"
HarperCollins (now in 2nd or 3rd editions)
Hope this is useful to you. As I said, and keep saying, look BEHIND the work
and you will find some interesting and useful concepts etc. I suppose my
interest is due to the fact that I am familiar with neuroscience work and
the use of dichotomisations and how they generate/influence meaning thus I
can see how they can derive 'meaning' at the product level even if they do
not know what is going on under the hood.
best,
Chris.
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Jun 21 2000 - 01:36:36 BST