Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id LAA22568 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:58:46 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31017458CD@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:56:58 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
WE're clearly not using truth in the same sense here. I don't agree that
the only factor in our perceiving certain information as the truth being
ownership. For example, my password to get onto my e-mail package is mine
but it is not the truth. Natural selection, on the other hand is a truth,
but it doesn't belong to me.
Similarly territory and truth are not the same either. Territories are
things to be protected by their owners, truths are things to be passed
outside personal territories.
Also, in your final comment- survival for who or what? The meme, or the
person?
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Chris Lofting
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:36 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Vincent Campbell
> > Sent: Friday, 16 June 2000 9:14
> > To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> > Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth
> >
> >
> > I see what your saying about possessing/owning the truth, but what gives
> a
> > piece of information that value?
>
> you dont own truth, ownership IS truth. From a feelings perspective you
> can
> trace the feeling of correctness back to mapping territory by using
> waypoints. Thus my territory is "first tree on the left, go north to black
> rock, west to crooked tree.." black rock and crooked tree at the
> non-verbal
> level elicit feelings of 'correctness' or at a more primitive, local level
> 'mine' vs 'not mine'. Olfactory processes would link to this in the form
> of
> marking the rock/tree and using the smell as identification and so a sense
> of ownership. In this sense you make the 'truth'.
>
> This waypoint mapping is tracable to us in the manner in which the
> hippocampus links/maps reality and the more developed sense of
> 'correct/incorrect' is manifest in humans in the form of syntax
> processing.
>
>
> As you said context seems
> > important- does
> > that information fit into, add to, the existing understanding of
> > 'the truth'
> > that a person has.
>
> context is the source of feedback that acts to reinforce the feeling of a
> truth or reduce that feeling. Context is the area from which any truth can
> be exposed as a lie.
>
> You also talk about grammar and syntax that
> > fits in some
> > kind of way which seems OK, although I'm not enitirely sure I've
> > understood
> > your meaning there.
> >
>
> Context is the location of rules and regulations, both local and
> non-local.
> Speaking 'correctly' is a context-sourced rule based on social processes
> and
> the use of grammar. You can develop your own 'correct' language but no one
> is going to understand it unless you put it in the context where it can be
> shared with others and so learnt.
>
> > As to the second point, are you saying that the desire either to
> > tell others
> > or to with-hold it is about personal power?
>
> survival. personal and group.
>
> But how do we distinguish
> > between information and 'the truth' in this context?
>
> ? the distinction of information from noise is a truth in itself, zoom-in
> on
> the information and we determine if it is useful or not. The
> distinguishing
> of information from noise encodes a sense of value at a general level
> which
> we then particularise.
>
> Perhaps it's a
> > qualitative difference between practically useful information ('there's
> > sabre tooth tiger otuside the cave'), and social or emotionally useful
> > 'truths' ('god will look after us').
> >
>
> There is no immediate difference in that both phrases can be marked as
> 'correct' or 'incorrect' however there is a difference in that the latter
> phrase requires a belief system beyond the moment, it is not testable.
>
>
> > A further question would be- are truths which we are compelled to
> > tell other
> > people liable to be more successful at getting spread than truths
> > which are
> > regarded as secrets to share with only a few or no-one else?
>
> gossip and rumours are truths -- for a while :-) ANY transmission of a
> truth
> has a higher probability of being passed on. 'secret' truths are kept for
> social position, elitism, self or group protection.
>
>
> Following
> > that, what is it about the characteristics of those truths that
> > make people
> > want to pass them on?
> >
>
> survival.
>
> best,
>
> Chris.
>
> >
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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