Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA10763 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:23:18 +0100 From: "Chris Lofting" <ddiamond@ozemail.com.au> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 04:36:56 +1000 Message-ID: <LPBBICPHCJJBPJGHGMCIEELNCGAA.ddiamond@ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31017458CA@inchna.stir.ac.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Vincent Campbell
> Sent: Friday, 16 June 2000 9:14
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades - more on truth
>
>
> I see what your saying about possessing/owning the truth, but what gives a
> piece of information that value?
you dont own truth, ownership IS truth. From a feelings perspective you can
trace the feeling of correctness back to mapping territory by using
waypoints. Thus my territory is "first tree on the left, go north to black
rock, west to crooked tree.." black rock and crooked tree at the non-verbal
level elicit feelings of 'correctness' or at a more primitive, local level
'mine' vs 'not mine'. Olfactory processes would link to this in the form of
marking the rock/tree and using the smell as identification and so a sense
of ownership. In this sense you make the 'truth'.
This waypoint mapping is tracable to us in the manner in which the
hippocampus links/maps reality and the more developed sense of
'correct/incorrect' is manifest in humans in the form of syntax processing.
As you said context seems
> important- does
> that information fit into, add to, the existing understanding of
> 'the truth'
> that a person has.
context is the source of feedback that acts to reinforce the feeling of a
truth or reduce that feeling. Context is the area from which any truth can
be exposed as a lie.
You also talk about grammar and syntax that
> fits in some
> kind of way which seems OK, although I'm not enitirely sure I've
> understood
> your meaning there.
>
Context is the location of rules and regulations, both local and non-local.
Speaking 'correctly' is a context-sourced rule based on social processes and
the use of grammar. You can develop your own 'correct' language but no one
is going to understand it unless you put it in the context where it can be
shared with others and so learnt.
> As to the second point, are you saying that the desire either to
> tell others
> or to with-hold it is about personal power?
survival. personal and group.
But how do we distinguish
> between information and 'the truth' in this context?
? the distinction of information from noise is a truth in itself, zoom-in on
the information and we determine if it is useful or not. The distinguishing
of information from noise encodes a sense of value at a general level which
we then particularise.
Perhaps it's a
> qualitative difference between practically useful information ('there's
> sabre tooth tiger otuside the cave'), and social or emotionally useful
> 'truths' ('god will look after us').
>
There is no immediate difference in that both phrases can be marked as
'correct' or 'incorrect' however there is a difference in that the latter
phrase requires a belief system beyond the moment, it is not testable.
> A further question would be- are truths which we are compelled to
> tell other
> people liable to be more successful at getting spread than truths
> which are
> regarded as secrets to share with only a few or no-one else?
gossip and rumours are truths -- for a while :-) ANY transmission of a truth
has a higher probability of being passed on. 'secret' truths are kept for
social position, elitism, self or group protection.
Following
> that, what is it about the characteristics of those truths that
> make people
> want to pass them on?
>
survival.
best,
Chris.
>
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