Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA10741 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:22:18 +0100 From: "Joseph 1" <neohuman@goldenfuture.net> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Cons and Facades Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:22:37 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bfd7bf$d9a5a460$13281e8c@ultracom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.0.20000616115929.01dbe340@popmail.mcs.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Aaron Lynch wrote:
> For those who
> already sport a "bad attitude," memetics might hold a disproportionate
> allure due to its ability to provide a rationalization that neighborly
> love, kindness, honesty, etc. are foolish.
I disagree. After all, exactly the same arguments could be made in favor of
altruistic memes. For those who find a natural attraction to altruism,
memetics could provide very good arguments in their favor, as there are a
lot of good examples of memes-for-altruism thriving. I would regard memetics
as neutral in the altruism vs. selfishness debate, since both strategies
seem to work for memes in different ways.
> Additionally, memetics provides new ways to reach the cynical conclusion
> that unkindness, dishonesty, etc. will naturally prevail.
Once again, I don't see anything inherent in memetics to suggest this. Memes
which encourage altruistic behavior on the part of their hosts are just as
likely to be successfully transmitted as ones that encourage selfishness in
the host. Thus, while memetics might do as you suggest, it also provides new
ways to reach the altruistic conclusion that hospitality, selfless giving,
and scrupulous honesty will prevail.
However, even memes that cause altruistic behavior are selfish in and of
themselves. They promote altruism in the host in order to selfishly
replicate themselves. This is a subtle difference that needs to be
reinforced.
> Another route to "bad attitudes" is through the naturalistic fallacy. With
> so much attention to selfish memes, one can simply conclude that one
> "ought" to engineer or transmit selfish selfish memes. A double sense of
> "selfishness" may enter in here, in which the meme is "selfhish"not only
> with respect to itself, but also with respect to the interests of those
> creating or transmitting it.
I think you've hit the nail on the head; the problem here is the confusion
between selfish behavior in memes themselves and selfish behavior caused by
memes in host minds. We ought to combat this tendency for exactly the
reasons you bring up; it could lead to fallacious understandings of
memetics. But it's only because of a possible misunderstanding, rather than
anything inherent in memetics per se.
Joseph 1
http://www.goldenfuture.net/neohuman
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