Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id UAA20430 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:57:03 +0100 From: Robin Faichney <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk> Organization: Reborn Technology To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Criticisms of Blackmore's approach Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:39:45 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] Content-Type: text/plain References: <1251611139-15930705@smtp.clarityconnect.com> Message-Id: <00060920495500.00473@faichney> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On Fri, 09 Jun 2000, Raymond Recchia wrote:
>
>Imitation is probably the most basic means by which memes are transmitted
>and likely the most common form of
>memetic transmission in animals. For example, the using the stick trick to
>get ants (or is it termites) in chimpanzees is transmitted by imitation. We
>also see this in humans, as in the case of blacksmith or carpenter
>transmitting his trade to an apprentice largely through the process of
>imitation.
Agreed. Good example.
>Linguistic transmission though is a different process and may not involve
>any imitation at all. As hypothetical example consider the following:
>
>Mr Einstein frequently mutters the phrase 'E=mc2' in the presence of his
>parrot. After a while the parrot begins imitating Albert, copying tone and
>inflection to a such a degree that only a professional voice imitator could
>match it.
>
>Later Einstein gets another parrot. By this time he has stopped muttering
>'E=mc2' but his first parrot hasn't. The second parrot learns to imitate the
>first one.
>
>At some point, Mr. Heisenberg happens upon the parrots. He hears them
>imitating Mr. Einstein and realizes that the parrots have the solution to a
>problem Mr. Heisenberg has been unable to solve for years. Mr. Heisenberg
>is mute and cannot ever mutter the phrase 'E=mc2'. He does write it
>frequently though and many others learn it from him.
>
>Where are the memes? The parrot's are defineatly imitating. How can it be
>said (especially from a behavioral standpoint) that Mr. Heisenberg is?
This is very easily handled from an information theory standpoint. The
parrots form an information channel, in principle no different from any
other. What is going on here is exactly the same as where a meme is
transmitted via, say, radio. Mr Heisenberg is passing a radio store, and
just happens to hear the formula being recited by someone on a talk radio
science show (don't know if there is such a thing in the US -- there is
here in the UK). It does not matter in the least whether the person who
recites the formula is the scientist, who understands it, or the presenter,
who does not. Come to that, Mr H might as well have heard it directly
from the lips of Mr E, and exactly the same process (regarding its relevant
aspects, that is) takes place in his head. The point is that he already
has all he needs in there, except for that one last building brick -- or
straw -- and he becomes enlightened. The channel through which that
brick or staw reached him is, assuming it's up to the job, otherwise
absolutely irrelevant.
This is where I reach an accord -- sort of -- with Richard. What's
actually transmitted, the brick/straw, is quite minimal. What it
*means*, which is surely what matters, is in a sense reconstructed in
the mind of the recipient. Or to put it another way, it takes Mr H,
apparently quite an unusual man, to *decode* the message, the meme,
from its carrier, the spoken formula "E=mc2". Neither parrot, nor
the radio presenter (in this case) was capable of doing that, but so
what? They were only components of the information channel, anyway.
And, indeed, if all he actually heard was the formula, then for Mr H,
the fact that the radio scientist and Mr E, if he'd heard it from
either of them, *were* capable of decoding it, is irrelevant, because
they were only components of a channel, too.
Does "E=mc2" contain the meme? That depends entirely on your point of
view. Or, to be more accurate, on whether you're capable of decoding
it. But the meme has certainly replicated, as it's now in the mind of
Mr H. Is this imitation? I'd say no, because of the decoding
required, as it is in all symbolic communication. I think decoded
memes and those passed on by direct imitation must be dysjunct sets.
But all symbolic communication is based on imitation. That's how it's
first learned. Imitation is not ubiquitous, but it is fundamental, and
I think it's perfectly reasonable to focus on it, where the fundamentals
of memetics are being discussed.
-- Robin Faichney===============================This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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