Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA15289 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:44:35 +0100 X-Sender: rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk From: Raymond Recchia <rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com> Subject: Re: Criticisms of Blackmore's approach Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:42:37 -0400 Message-ID: <1251611139-15930705@smtp.clarityconnect.com> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
At 07:59 AM 06/07/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Diana,
>
>> The meme as a "unit
>> of cultural transmission" as Dawkins first put it may be a much more useful
>> definition than the later "unit of imitation".
>
>In the FWIW department, I think that the problem stems from
>Dawkins, for a good, but flawed, reason. He had imitation in mind
>as the means of replication. In fact, the word "meme" is meant to
>reflect that connection, by its similarity to "mime" ("The
>Selfish Gene"). As a biologist, I do not think that he gave much
>thought to the details of the psychological processes involved.
>
>Blackmore adopts a very broad definition of "imitation", one that
>seems a strain to me. ;-) My guess is that she wants to avoid
>quibbles over terminology by keeping the same term but
>interpreting it broadly.
>
>The good reason for saying that memes propagate by imitation is
>fidelity. Without worrying about the details of the process of
>memetic replication, if it results in a faithful copy with very
>high probability, we can call the process imitation. With high
>fidelity we can apply well established ways of thinking about
>evolution, by analogy to genes.
>
>This is flawed, I think, because cultural transmission occurs not
>just through imitation. Learning is much more. In addition, memes
>are altered much more freely than genes, and this alteration
>occurs during transmission as well. Transmission has relatively
>low fidelity. Lessons learned about genetic evolution have
>limited application to memetic evolution. Attempts to apply the
>genotype-phenotype distinction to memes muddy the waters much
>more than they shed light, for instance.
>
>Best,
>
>Bill
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
Imitation is probably the most basic means by which memes are transmitted
and likely the most common form of
memetic transmission in animals. For example, the using the stick trick to
get ants (or is it termites) in chimpanzees is transmitted by imitation. We
also see this in humans, as in the case of blacksmith or carpenter
transmitting his trade to an apprentice largely through the process of
imitation.
Linguistic transmission though is a different process and may not involve
any imitation at all. As hypothetical example consider the following:
Mr Einstein frequently mutters the phrase 'E=mc2' in the presence of his
parrot. After a while the parrot begins imitating Albert, copying tone and
inflection to a such a degree that only a professional voice imitator could
match it.
Later Einstein gets another parrot. By this time he has stopped muttering
'E=mc2' but his first parrot hasn't. The second parrot learns to imitate the
first one.
At some point, Mr. Heisenberg happens upon the parrots. He hears them
imitating Mr. Einstein and realizes that the parrots have the solution to a
problem Mr. Heisenberg has been unable to solve for years. Mr. Heisenberg
is mute and cannot ever mutter the phrase 'E=mc2'. He does write it
frequently though and many others learn it from him.
Where are the memes? The parrot's are defineatly imitating. How can it be
said (especially from a behavioral standpoint) that Mr. Heisenberg is?
Raymond O. Recchia
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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