From: Lawrence DeBivort (debivort@umd5.umd.edu)
Date: Sun 15 Dec 2002 - 22:34:49 GMT
Yes, WE forced the resignation of OUR OWN president Nixon. And before that,
we did the same with LBJ, regarding running for a second term. It wasn't
some external government that did it. I imagine that is, say, Venezuela had
tried to get us to make Nixon step down, we would have told them to stuff a
sock in it and that Nixon's support would have shot up. Hmmm...now there's
a strategy for the next unpopular US president to consider.
So, it seems to me that your thinking actually suggests that we should leave
the Venezuelans to make their own decisions, the same way we would expect
other countries to let us make our own.
This question is not an unimportant one. Our support for SAVAK had a lot to
do with the ability of Khomeini to come to power. A significant number, I
would guess, of those who demonstrated in the streets of Tehran against the
Shah and the US had relatives, friends and acquaintances who were imprisoned
and tortured by SAVAK. SAVAK ran rough-shod over the Iranian people for many
years, until they were able to get rid of the Shah. One can hardly criticize
them, though Khomeini himself was a horrible leader and it was then to take
many years before the Iranian people could begin to mitigate the worst of
his regime. We can only speculate about how things might have turned out
had we not supported SAVAK and the Shah in the ways we did in the last years
of the Shah's rule.
Sometimes Americans have a hard time understanding why Carter was so hated
by the Iranian people. Carter, after all, seems (and I believe is) a good
and generous and understanding person. But he was also the President who
stood by the Shah until the very end, and consequently imposed on the
Iranian people several unnecessary years of SAVAK brutality. I think it is
this perception that underlay the hatred of Carter, and the whole sick
'punishment' of holding Embassy personnel hostage for 444 days (IIRC) until
minutes, literally, after Reagan became president. To this day, I don't
think Carter understands this.
Intruding in the affairs of others, no matter how tempting, will in
international politics, always exact a revenge. It may take years, but the
dynamic will eventually manifest itself, one way or another.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of joedees@bellsouth.net
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 3:41 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Pax Americana Imperium
>
>
> > Well Joe, you are probably right on that, but of course, this doesn't
> > mean that it has become our business, in the same way that we would
> > say it isn't the business of the Venezuelans to call for a new
> > election in the US. Do you think the US would have listened to a
> > foreign government proposing that the US hold new elections in the
> > 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, say, when white southerners were rioting and
> > killing blacks and civil rights workers? Or when we were killing
> > hundreds of thousands of Viet Namese in their own country? Or
> > supporting SAVAK in Iran?
> >
> > Why is our goose so special compared to their gander?
> >
> Actually, we forced the resignation of Nixon. And other nations were
> delighted.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> > > Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 2:33
> > > PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Pax Americana Imperium
> > >
> > >
> > > > We expect the Venezuelans to take our advice to hurry up their
> > > > election cycle, I assume (or else there is not much point in
> > > > meddling in their affairs), but I wonder how seriously we would
> > > > take a suggestion from the Venezuelans that we re-do our election
> > > > of 2000, on the grounds that Bush received fewer votes than Gore,
> > > > that there is an estimated 5% census undercount of black voters
> > > > (upon which House representation is based), and that black voting
> > > > precincts had 'difficulties' in Florida.
> > > >
> > > > What is sauce for the goose must be sauce for the gander. Except,
> > > > I suppose, for a goose who considers himself better than all
> > > > others and above the law.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Lawry
> > > >
> > > I think the call for electoral resolution has more to do with the
> > > prospect of military coups and civil war and riots and dead in the
> > > streets; this situation did not present itself in the US.
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> > > > > Behalf Of Grant Callaghan Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:18
> > > > > PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Pax Americana Imperium
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:05:29 -0600
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > For those on the list who are doing memetic mapping:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There of course has been growing notice paid to the power of
> > > > > > > the US and the way the US government is wielding that power.
> > > > > > > (Just today, I saw the US referred to as a 'hyper power.')
> > > > > > > This attention has been focused on US relations with the
> > > > > > > Middle East and increasingly, Europe. And now, this for
> > > > > > > Latin America:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Headline from the NYT
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Shifting Stance, U.S. Calls for Early Election in Venezuela
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The White House called for early elections in Venezuela, at
> > > > > > > least backing opposition demands, as unrest continues.
> > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/14/international/americas/14V
> > > > > > > ENE. html?t odaysh eadlines
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > Lawry
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >Yep; the US wants the people of Venezuela to settle their
> > > > > >dispute by popular vote; how imperial!
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The imperial part is where we told them to hurry up. How dare
> > > > > us! But then, they're getting in the way of G.W.'s war on Iraq
> > > > > and the headlines that go with it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Grant ;-)>
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________________________________________
> > > > > _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
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> > > > >
> > > > >
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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