From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Sun 15 Dec 2002 - 23:04:46 GMT
> Yes, WE forced the resignation of OUR OWN president Nixon. And before
> that, we did the same with LBJ, regarding running for a second term.
> It wasn't some external government that did it. I imagine that is,
> say, Venezuela had tried to get us to make Nixon step down, we would
> have told them to stuff a sock in it and that Nixon's support would
> have shot up. Hmmm...now there's a strategy for the next unpopular US
> president to consider.
>
> So, it seems to me that your thinking actually suggests that we should
> leave the Venezuelans to make their own decisions, the same way we
> would expect other countries to let us make our own.
>
Well, the US certainly aren't sending troops in there to keep the peace
and prepare for elections; it just voiced an opinion.
>
> This question is not an unimportant one. Our support for SAVAK had a
> lot to do with the ability of Khomeini to come to power. A significant
> number, I would guess, of those who demonstrated in the streets of
> Tehran against the Shah and the US had relatives, friends and
> acquaintances who were imprisoned and tortured by SAVAK. SAVAK ran
> rough-shod over the Iranian people for many years, until they were
> able to get rid of the Shah. One can hardly criticize them, though
> Khomeini himself was a horrible leader and it was then to take many
> years before the Iranian people could begin to mitigate the worst of
> his regime. We can only speculate about how things might have turned
> out had we not supported SAVAK and the Shah in the ways we did in the
> last years of the Shah's rule.
>
And we have learned hard lessons from that support; now, we are
opposing a cruel, murderous and despotic leader in neighboring Iraq.
>
> Sometimes Americans have a hard time understanding why Carter was so
> hated by the Iranian people. Carter, after all, seems (and I believe
> is) a good and generous and understanding person. But he was also the
> President who stood by the Shah until the very end, and consequently
> imposed on the Iranian people several unnecessary years of SAVAK
> brutality. I think it is this perception that underlay the hatred of
> Carter, and the whole sick 'punishment' of holding Embassy personnel
> hostage for 444 days (IIRC) until minutes, literally, after Reagan
> became president. To this day, I don't think Carter understands this.
>
> Intruding in the affairs of others, no matter how tempting, will in
> international politics, always exact a revenge. It may take years,
> but the dynamic will eventually manifest itself, one way or another.
>
The US pays a heavy international price when it disengages from the
Middle East, and refuses to intervene. I guess you'll just damn the US
when it does and damn them it when it doesn't.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> > Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 3:41
> > PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Pax Americana Imperium
> >
> >
> > > Well Joe, you are probably right on that, but of course, this
> > > doesn't mean that it has become our business, in the same way that
> > > we would say it isn't the business of the Venezuelans to call for
> > > a new election in the US. Do you think the US would have
> > > listened to a foreign government proposing that the US hold new
> > > elections in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, say, when white
> > > southerners were rioting and killing blacks and civil rights
> > > workers? Or when we were killing hundreds of thousands of Viet
> > > Namese in their own country? Or supporting SAVAK in Iran?
> > >
> > > Why is our goose so special compared to their gander?
> > >
> > Actually, we forced the resignation of Nixon. And other nations
> > were delighted.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> > > > Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002
> > > > 2:33 PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Pax Americana
> > > > Imperium
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > We expect the Venezuelans to take our advice to hurry up their
> > > > > election cycle, I assume (or else there is not much point in
> > > > > meddling in their affairs), but I wonder how seriously we
> > > > > would take a suggestion from the Venezuelans that we re-do our
> > > > > election of 2000, on the grounds that Bush received fewer
> > > > > votes than Gore, that there is an estimated 5% census
> > > > > undercount of black voters (upon which House representation is
> > > > > based), and that black voting precincts had 'difficulties' in
> > > > > Florida.
> > > > >
> > > > > What is sauce for the goose must be sauce for the gander.
> > > > > Except, I suppose, for a goose who considers himself better
> > > > > than all others and above the law.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Lawry
> > > > >
> > > > I think the call for electoral resolution has more to do with
> > > > the prospect of military coups and civil war and riots and dead
> > > > in the streets; this situation did not present itself in the US.
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > > > [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Grant Callaghan
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:18 PM To:
> > > > > > memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Pax Americana Imperium
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:05:29 -0600
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For those on the list who are doing memetic mapping:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There of course has been growing notice paid to the
> > > > > > > > power of the US and the way the US government is
> > > > > > > > wielding that power. (Just today, I saw the US referred
> > > > > > > > to as a 'hyper power.') This attention has been focused
> > > > > > > > on US relations with the Middle East and increasingly,
> > > > > > > > Europe. And now, this for Latin America:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Headline from the NYT
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Shifting Stance, U.S. Calls for Early Election in
> > > > > > > > Venezuela
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The White House called for early elections in Venezuela,
> > > > > > > > at least backing opposition demands, as unrest
> > > > > > > > continues.
> > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/14/international/americas
> > > > > > > > /14V ENE. html?t odaysh eadlines
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > > Lawry
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Yep; the US wants the people of Venezuela to settle their
> > > > > > >dispute by popular vote; how imperial!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The imperial part is where we told them to hurry up. How
> > > > > > dare us! But then, they're getting in the way of G.W.'s war
> > > > > > on Iraq and the headlines that go with it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Grant ;-)>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > > > > ____ _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months
> > > > > > FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ============================================================
> > > > > > === This was distributed via the memetics list associated
> > > > > > with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of
> > > > > > Information Transmission For information about the journal
> > > > > > and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see:
> > > > > > http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ==============================================================
> > > > > = This was distributed via the memetics list associated with
> > > > > the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> > > > > Transmission For information about the journal and the list
> > > > > (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> > > > Transmission For information about the journal and the list
> > > > (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> > > Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g.
> > > unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > =============================================================== This
> > was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of
> > Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For
> > information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see:
> > http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun 15 Dec 2002 - 23:05:58 GMT