Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id LAA11664 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:29:06 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D310174589F@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Jabbering ! Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:26:56 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Memes before genes, eh? I don't think Chuck will like that idea.
I on the other hand really don't like this use of the word culture for other
animals especially caterpillars.
If memetics is a theory of cultural evolution then some agreement has to be
reached about what a culture actually is. It seems to me, from many of the
postings on this, that the term is used quite differently in different
disciplines.
I'd quite like someone to clarify for me how they use the term culture to
describe behaviours of caterpillars or apes or whatever.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Bruce Jones
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2000 9:51 pm
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: Jabbering !
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kenneth Van Oost [SMTP:Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be]
> > Subject: Re: Jabbering !
> >
> > " language can be described as some kind of collective invention "
> > instead, what do we get !?
> >
> > In one or more places, one or more individuals managed to get an idea
> > of identifying a particular action or piece of rock or a location by a
> > particular sequence of sounds, repeated substantially unchanged over
> time
> > and
> > recognized as a communication symbol by others.
> [BJ]
> My take on the development of language: Bear with me here this is
> my opinion and mine alone .... I think!
>
> All animals have a language of sorts; elephants "rumble", lions
> roar, caterpillars "rasp", "lower" primates chatter, birds chirp and
> screech. Each sound or combination of sounds or in combination with
> gestures has a particular meaning within the "culture" and survival
> capabilities of the organism.
>
> Man, as a "higher" primate, some where waaaaaay back in the pre-dawn
> times, began to develop a larger and more complex vocalization apparatus.
> How many Millions of years or how many variations during that
> developmental
> time is anybody's guess. As these vocalizations began to take hold within
> isolated groups the "language" of that group took shape. More
> socialization
> and mixing of different groups and language developed rapidly.
>
> HOWEVER, the memes were already there. All the vocalization did was
> set the pattern of those memes into the language of the culture(s). A
> multitude of experiments with various mixtures, under different
> conditions,
> of what is believed to have been primordial soup and one with plain water
> has shown that the essential building blocks of life --- and the genes
> that
> make up that life -- can and do start to organize into the amino acids of
> protein and genetic material. These molecules , however, took a long time
> to get organized ...... these were and are the memes of cellular genetics
> ...... memes came first!
>
> > >From such a situation the development of language can be envisaged !
> >
> > Language is then in itself a set of memes which formed a complex system
> > and is so also the vehicle, tool and reflection of all other aspects of
> > the activity of human beings. Strange though, that a set of memes along
> > the path of evolution were in
> > such a manner favourised so that they not only change along various
> kinds
> > of pressures but also change the cultural systems of a people.
> >
> > In addition, each individual changes some or many of his/ hers ways of
> > speaking, as he does this others imitate him, and the change spread.
> [BJ]
> The reason for dialects and regional sayings. My son was with some
> friends from England while working in Mass. a few years ago. (talk about
> a
> strange mixture of languages). While taking a little trip one weekend as
> a
> group , my son was navigating and on eof the gentlemen from England was
> driving. My son saw on the map that a turn to the right was coming up and
> said, "Yergonnawanna turn right up here." Needles to say confusion
> reigned.
> Had he been talking to a fellow Texan from the Panhandle .... no problem.
> The meaning was the same, the concept was the same, the utterance was
> different ..... memetic mutation?
>
> > An examination of the facts would give indeed a strange picture.For
> change
> > there had to be actor, an action and a goal.
> > This leads to the suggestion that not one memeplex but three memeplexes
> > were involved ! Does this means that the concept of memetics was then
> > already in place !?
> [BJ]
> Why three?
>
> > The question is particular important to us, the memetisists:- is a
> general
> > culture habit reflected in the language (and if so what came first_the
> > idea (meme) of the word (for that meme)) or is the use of a particular
> > word a prior stimulus to change our behavior and thus the language !?
> (For
> > example, the use of computers is reflected in different words as virtual
> > reality; links; . com and www. or vice versa_did www. change our
> behavior
> > and thus the language !?
>
> [BJ]
> Good question. The development of a specialist language during an
> interest in the art/science/hobby of memetics is extremely fortunate and
> should be taken advantage of.
>
> Bruce Jones
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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