Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id DAA16445 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 3 Jun 2000 03:27:14 +0100 Message-ID: <3938263B.6221F975@mediaone.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:25:15 +0100 From: Chuck <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Jabbering ! References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D310174589F@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> Memes before genes, eh? I don't think Chuck will like that idea.
>
> I on the other hand really don't like this use of the word culture for other
> animals especially caterpillars.
I kind of **like* the idea that caterpillars have culture. I brings to mind
millions of caterpillars crawling down the streets of New York City, adding
color to an otherwise drab New York City culture -- until the taxis come along
and splat them flat. I can see a book about this down the line.
>
>
> If memetics is a theory of cultural evolution then some agreement has to be
> reached about what a culture actually is. It seems to me, from many of the
> postings on this, that the term is used quite differently in different
> disciplines.
>
> I'd quite like someone to clarify for me how they use the term culture to
> describe behaviours of caterpillars or apes or whatever.
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Bruce Jones
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2000 9:51 pm
> > To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> > Subject: RE: Jabbering !
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Kenneth Van Oost [SMTP:Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be]
> > > Subject: Re: Jabbering !
> > >
> > > " language can be described as some kind of collective invention "
> > > instead, what do we get !?
> > >
> > > In one or more places, one or more individuals managed to get an idea
> > > of identifying a particular action or piece of rock or a location by a
> > > particular sequence of sounds, repeated substantially unchanged over
> > time
> > > and
> > > recognized as a communication symbol by others.
> > [BJ]
> > My take on the development of language: Bear with me here this is
> > my opinion and mine alone .... I think!
> >
> > All animals have a language of sorts; elephants "rumble", lions
> > roar, caterpillars "rasp", "lower" primates chatter, birds chirp and
> > screech. Each sound or combination of sounds or in combination with
> > gestures has a particular meaning within the "culture" and survival
> > capabilities of the organism.
> >
> > Man, as a "higher" primate, some where waaaaaay back in the pre-dawn
> > times, began to develop a larger and more complex vocalization apparatus.
> > How many Millions of years or how many variations during that
> > developmental
> > time is anybody's guess. As these vocalizations began to take hold within
> > isolated groups the "language" of that group took shape. More
> > socialization
> > and mixing of different groups and language developed rapidly.
> >
> > HOWEVER, the memes were already there. All the vocalization did was
> > set the pattern of those memes into the language of the culture(s). A
> > multitude of experiments with various mixtures, under different
> > conditions,
> > of what is believed to have been primordial soup and one with plain water
> > has shown that the essential building blocks of life --- and the genes
> > that
> > make up that life -- can and do start to organize into the amino acids of
> > protein and genetic material. These molecules , however, took a long time
> > to get organized ...... these were and are the memes of cellular genetics
> > ...... memes came first!
> >
> > > >From such a situation the development of language can be envisaged !
> > >
> > > Language is then in itself a set of memes which formed a complex system
> > > and is so also the vehicle, tool and reflection of all other aspects of
> > > the activity of human beings. Strange though, that a set of memes along
> > > the path of evolution were in
> > > such a manner favourised so that they not only change along various
> > kinds
> > > of pressures but also change the cultural systems of a people.
> > >
> > > In addition, each individual changes some or many of his/ hers ways of
> > > speaking, as he does this others imitate him, and the change spread.
> > [BJ]
> > The reason for dialects and regional sayings. My son was with some
> > friends from England while working in Mass. a few years ago. (talk about
> > a
> > strange mixture of languages). While taking a little trip one weekend as
> > a
> > group , my son was navigating and on eof the gentlemen from England was
> > driving. My son saw on the map that a turn to the right was coming up and
> > said, "Yergonnawanna turn right up here." Needles to say confusion
> > reigned.
> > Had he been talking to a fellow Texan from the Panhandle .... no problem.
> > The meaning was the same, the concept was the same, the utterance was
> > different ..... memetic mutation?
> >
> > > An examination of the facts would give indeed a strange picture.For
> > change
> > > there had to be actor, an action and a goal.
> > > This leads to the suggestion that not one memeplex but three memeplexes
> > > were involved ! Does this means that the concept of memetics was then
> > > already in place !?
> > [BJ]
> > Why three?
> >
> > > The question is particular important to us, the memetisists:- is a
> > general
> > > culture habit reflected in the language (and if so what came first_the
> > > idea (meme) of the word (for that meme)) or is the use of a particular
> > > word a prior stimulus to change our behavior and thus the language !?
> > (For
> > > example, the use of computers is reflected in different words as virtual
> > > reality; links; . com and www. or vice versa_did www. change our
> > behavior
> > > and thus the language !?
>
> >
> > [BJ]
> > Good question. The development of a specialist language during an
> > interest in the art/science/hobby of memetics is extremely fortunate and
> > should be taken advantage of.
> >
> > Bruce Jones
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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