RE: Lawrence of Arabia and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, revisited

From: Lawrence DeBivort (debivort@umd5.umd.edu)
Date: Fri 06 Dec 2002 - 03:42:07 GMT

  • Next message: joedees@bellsouth.net: "Addendum to Kenneth"

    Thanks for the recap, Scott, and the additional quotes.

    In the main, I think the movie was pretty accurate as to political and military history. Even some of the more dramatic scenes are true to history: the attack on Aqaba, the massacre of the retreating Turkish column, the entry into Jerusalem and Damascus.

    Cheers, Lawry

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
    > Of Scott Chase
    > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:17 PM
    > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Subject: Re: Lawrence of Arabia and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, revisited
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >From: "Grant Callaghan" <grantc4@hotmail.com>
    > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > >Subject: Re: Lawrence of Arabia and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, revisited
    > >Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 17:59:45 -0800
    > >
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>Some time ago, Grant (I think) posted an informative post in which as an
    > >>aside he suggested that Lawrence of Arabia had betrayed the Arabs by
    > >>inducing them to revolt against the Ottomans for Arab independence,
    > >>knowing
    > >>that the British and French had signed a secret agreement in which they
    > >>carved up the area for their colonial aims. I posted a reply indicating
    > >>that
    > >>Lawrence was innocent of this deception, as he had urged the revolt in
    > >>1915
    > >
    > >
    > >Sorry, Lawry, that wasn't mine.
    > >
    > I was mine. Lawry's been having troubles confusing the two of us.
    > Could we
    > be Siamese twin seperated at birth? Doppelgangers? I could be
    > your sinister
    > shadow projected each time you post...
    >
    > The post Lawry must have in mind:
    >
    > http://cfpm.org/~majordom/memetics/2000/12972.html
    >
    > was where I was ranting about contrarian Europe and the U.K. I
    > made a couple
    > MST3Kish movie references and then quite off the top of my head
    > uttered the
    > following:
    >
    > (bq)"If I were Irish reflecting on former English rule over my
    > island (minus
    > six counties) or an Arab who felt betrayed by T.E. Lawrence et al things
    > might be different."(eq)
    >
    > Notice the "et al* after Lawrence. I was including Lawrence in a group of
    > people responsible for British policy towards the Arabs (aiding
    > "The Revolt"
    > and also for the behind the scenes maneuvering with France for post war
    > spoils). I also said the the Arab might have felt betrayed, which is not
    > exactly the same as being betrayed (perception versus reality).
    > Lawry helped
    > add more depth with his followup:
    >
    > http://cfpm.org/~majordom/memetics/2000/12973.html
    >
    > The issue of T.E. Lawrence's involvement in the Arab revolt and how
    > Sykes-Picot fits in may be something to pursue. I'm no expert on
    > Lawrence's
    > bio. Robert Lacey in _The Kingdom: Arabia & the House of Saud_ (1981.
    > Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Publishers. New York) offers the
    > following, which
    > is more provocative than what I said:
    >
    > (bq) "...But the Sykes-Picot agreement clearly contradicted the spirit of
    > the Arab Revolt- why else had it been kept a secret?- and T. E.
    > Lawrence, at
    > least, never made any attempt to deny the deception in which he knowingly
    > participated:
    >
    > 'I risked the fraud', he wrote, 'on my conviction that Arab help was
    > necessary to our cheap and speedy victory in the East, and that better we
    > win and break our word than lose.' Lawrence knew from the beginning that
    > 'the promises to the Arabs were dead paper:..."(eq)
    >
    > The part that ends '...than lose.' is attributed by Lacey to page 24 of
    > _Seven Pillars_. The part that ends '...were dead paper' appears
    > contiguous
    > to the following excerpt from _Seven Pillars_ and is attributed
    > to page 283
    > of _Seven Pillars_:
    >
    > (bq)"...Had I been an honourable adviser [he wrote] I would have
    > sent my men
    > home, and not let them risk their lives for such stuff. Yet the Arab
    > inspiration was our main tool for winning the Eastern war. So I
    > assured them
    > that England kept her word in letter and spirit. In this comfort they
    > performed their fine things: but, of course, instead of being
    > proud of what
    > we did together, I was continually and bitterly ashamed." (eq)
    >
    > Lacey's bibliography includes the 1935 edition of _Seven Pillars
    > of Wisdom_
    > (London:Cape).
    >
    > This quote from Lacey's book is from pages 134-5 and is indexed under
    > "Lawrence, T. E... attempt to justify betrayal of Arab cause, 134-6"
    > >
    > >All I know about Lawrence of Arabia I saw on the big screen and I didn't
    > >believe half of it. ;-)
    > >
    > >
    > I have the movie on DVD and wonder how far it departs from actual history.
    >
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