From: Scott Chase (ecphoric@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri 06 Dec 2002 - 03:58:58 GMT
>From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
>Subject: RE: Lawrence of Arabia and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, revisited
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:42:07 -0500
>
>Thanks for the recap, Scott, and the additional quotes.
>
>In the main, I think the movie was pretty accurate as to political and
>military history. Even some of the more dramatic scenes are true to
>history: the attack on Aqaba, the massacre of the retreating Turkish
>column,
>the entry into Jerusalem and Damascus.
>
Who was the first of the Allies to enter Damascus? According to David
Fromkin's _A Peace to End All Peace_ (1989/2001. Henry Holt and Company. New
York, p.337) it was the Aussies (cavalry). Was that in the movie?
>
>Cheers,
>Lawry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Scott Chase
> > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:17 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Lawrence of Arabia and the Sykes-Picot Agreement, revisited
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Grant Callaghan" <grantc4@hotmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > >Subject: Re: Lawrence of Arabia and the Sykes-Picot Agreement,
>revisited
> > >Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 17:59:45 -0800
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Some time ago, Grant (I think) posted an informative post in which as
>an
> > >>aside he suggested that Lawrence of Arabia had betrayed the Arabs by
> > >>inducing them to revolt against the Ottomans for Arab independence,
> > >>knowing
> > >>that the British and French had signed a secret agreement in which
>they
> > >>carved up the area for their colonial aims. I posted a reply
>indicating
> > >>that
> > >>Lawrence was innocent of this deception, as he had urged the revolt in
> > >>1915
> > >
> > >
> > >Sorry, Lawry, that wasn't mine.
> > >
> > I was mine. Lawry's been having troubles confusing the two of us.
> > Could we
> > be Siamese twin seperated at birth? Doppelgangers? I could be
> > your sinister
> > shadow projected each time you post...
> >
> > The post Lawry must have in mind:
> >
> > http://cfpm.org/~majordom/memetics/2000/12972.html
> >
> > was where I was ranting about contrarian Europe and the U.K. I
> > made a couple
> > MST3Kish movie references and then quite off the top of my head
> > uttered the
> > following:
> >
> > (bq)"If I were Irish reflecting on former English rule over my
> > island (minus
> > six counties) or an Arab who felt betrayed by T.E. Lawrence et al things
> > might be different."(eq)
> >
> > Notice the "et al* after Lawrence. I was including Lawrence in a group
>of
> > people responsible for British policy towards the Arabs (aiding
> > "The Revolt"
> > and also for the behind the scenes maneuvering with France for post war
> > spoils). I also said the the Arab might have felt betrayed, which is not
> > exactly the same as being betrayed (perception versus reality).
> > Lawry helped
> > add more depth with his followup:
> >
> > http://cfpm.org/~majordom/memetics/2000/12973.html
> >
> > The issue of T.E. Lawrence's involvement in the Arab revolt and how
> > Sykes-Picot fits in may be something to pursue. I'm no expert on
> > Lawrence's
> > bio. Robert Lacey in _The Kingdom: Arabia & the House of Saud_ (1981.
> > Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Publishers. New York) offers the
> > following, which
> > is more provocative than what I said:
> >
> > (bq) "...But the Sykes-Picot agreement clearly contradicted the spirit
>of
> > the Arab Revolt- why else had it been kept a secret?- and T. E.
> > Lawrence, at
> > least, never made any attempt to deny the deception in which he
>knowingly
> > participated:
> >
> > 'I risked the fraud', he wrote, 'on my conviction that Arab help was
> > necessary to our cheap and speedy victory in the East, and that better
>we
> > win and break our word than lose.' Lawrence knew from the beginning that
> > 'the promises to the Arabs were dead paper:..."(eq)
> >
> > The part that ends '...than lose.' is attributed by Lacey to page 24 of
> > _Seven Pillars_. The part that ends '...were dead paper' appears
> > contiguous
> > to the following excerpt from _Seven Pillars_ and is attributed
> > to page 283
> > of _Seven Pillars_:
> >
> > (bq)"...Had I been an honourable adviser [he wrote] I would have
> > sent my men
> > home, and not let them risk their lives for such stuff. Yet the Arab
> > inspiration was our main tool for winning the Eastern war. So I
> > assured them
> > that England kept her word in letter and spirit. In this comfort they
> > performed their fine things: but, of course, instead of being
> > proud of what
> > we did together, I was continually and bitterly ashamed." (eq)
> >
> > Lacey's bibliography includes the 1935 edition of _Seven Pillars
> > of Wisdom_
> > (London:Cape).
> >
> > This quote from Lacey's book is from pages 134-5 and is indexed under
> > "Lawrence, T. E... attempt to justify betrayal of Arab cause, 134-6"
> > >
> > >All I know about Lawrence of Arabia I saw on the big screen and I
>didn't
> > >believe half of it. ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > I have the movie on DVD and wonder how far it departs from actual
>history.
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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> >
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> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
>
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>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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