RE: Why Europe is so Contrary

From: Scott Chase (
Date: Tue 19 Nov 2002 - 02:54:56 GMT

  • Next message: Lawrence DeBivort: "RE: Why Europe is so Contrary"

    >From: "Grant Callaghan" <>
    >Subject: RE: Why Europe is so Contrary
    >Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:42:10 -0800
    >And let's not forget what Napoleon did for the world in the name of France.
    > And what Hitler did for France in the name of Germany. Oh, there's lots
    >of room for finger pointing and cries of imperialism to go around.
    My main point was that before those from the U.K. and Europe start off on any holier than thou tirades against U.S. policy, they should take a closer look at their own gov't and their own histories.

    Even though I own a DVD version of Mel Gibson's "The Patriot" and harbor some resentment towards them Green Dragoons as depicted in that movie, I've no personal beef with the U.K. If I were Irish reflecting on former English rule over my island (minus six counties) or an Arab who felt betrayed by T.E. Lawrence et al things might be different. If the Brits on the list want to ask us about our brutal tactics, policy blunders and false promises, they should start looking at their own.

    After watching another Gibson flick "We Were Soldiers" I really started to reflect on our policies toward S.E. Asia and why the heck we committed troops in Vietnam. That was probably a bad move, though apologists would assert that even though we pulled out after all those deaths catalogued on the Vietnam memorial, making the stand may have helped in the long run
    (falling dominos and all that crap). BTW, the beginning of that movie shows the French involvement that preceded ours. Weren't they having troubles in Algeria at roughly the same time?

    "Blackhawk Down" also makes me reflect on futile efforts and crappy U.S. foreign policy. Bush Senior left that as a belated Christmas present for Clinton. I remember wondering what the heck we were doing getting involved in that endeavor and the catastrophe in Mogadishu pretty much sums it up. Bad move. BTW weren't the Somalis trained by ObL and his Afghan Arabs?
    >>>> Attacking Iraq on the back of 9/11 is a bit like the UK attacking
    >>>>the US on the back of the Omagh bombing, although that would have more
    >>>>legitimacy given the very overt fundraising for the IRA that has gone on
    >>>>the US for decades. Of course one big difference is that one of these
    >>>>situations involves attacking a nation with weapons of mass destruction
    >>>>it has used against multiple nations in the past- guess which one I
    >>>> Vincent
    >>>I often see people on the UKan side of the pond refer to the fact that a
    >>>large number of people fled Ireland to come to the U.S. a couple of
    >>>generations ago and their descendants now number among their population
    >>>people who support the IRA. Ever since the early days of the immigration
    >>>from Ireland we've had those who wear the 'green' as opposed to those who
    >>>wear the 'orange' or another color on St. Patrick's day. The IRA
    >>>supporters here in the U.S. are individuals responding to a history of
    >>>trouble between England and Ireland. It is NOT a plot by the American
    >>>government against Great Britain. To imply that it is and to equate
    >>>personal feelings with national policy is disengenuous to say the least.
    >>>We have just as many or more people in the U.S. who deplore the terrorism
    >>>of the IRA as we have people who support them and feel that they serve a
    >>>righteous cause. The government has not only tried to mediate between
    >>>the two sides, from Presidents of the U.S. to a Senate Majority Leader
    >>>named Mitchell, but we have jailed and sent back to England IRA members
    >>>who came here seeking funds from supporters in this country or who fled
    >>>jail in the U.K.
    >>>As a man who is deploring sweeping generalizations, you seem to be
    >>>falling into your own trap. Is that YOUR petard I see you dangling from?
    >>Let's see...shall we pry into that dark dusty history box of the British
    >>Empire (upon which the sun used to NEVER set, or so they say)?
    >>On the other side of the Troubles are the Reverend Ian Paisley and his
    >>rhetoric and Loyalist terror groups like the UVF. There's the Orange Order
    >>who can't give up marching the proud chest-thumping anti-Catholic history
    >>captured by the victorious Battle of the Boyne. There's the carrot of Home
    >>Rule and the stick of the Black and Tans. Have I missed anything since the
    >>12th century invasion and eventual emergence of the Pale and what his
    >>face...ummm...Oliver Cromwell? Will the Brits own up to their side of the
    >>Troubles? Their previous adventures in Ireland laid the foundations. Talk
    >>about blind spots. If the US has to contend with question of "why do they
    >>hate us?" wrt al-Qaueda and jihadists, by the same token the Brits have
    >>similar issues wrt the IRA.
    >>OK let's move to the middle the Brits really want us to replay
    >>that part of their empire's history? Support for al Saud. Sharing the WWI
    >>spoils (aka spheres of influence) with France. Propping King Abdullah up
    >>in Hashemite Jordan. Propping King Feisal up in Iraq (a Frankensteinian
    >>creation Britain stitched together out of Kurdish, Sunni and Shia areas of
    >>the former Ottoman Empire). British reaction to Qasim's threats against
    >>Kuwait long before Husayn rose to power. Before I was born actually.
    >>Wasn't Egypt formerly under British control? What was the 1956 Suez
    >>collusion all about? A last ditch attempt at asserting imperial hegemony
    >>by Britain and France?
    >>The US has learned the craft of hegenomy well from the shining example of
    >>its former colonial master.
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