Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id CAA09520 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 2 Jun 2000 02:45:30 +0100 From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Cui bono, Chuck? Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:42:59 -0700 Message-ID: <NBBBIIDKHCMGAIPMFFPJOEGOEOAA.richard@brodietech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <39339D2A.CD8D770@mediaone.net> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Chuck wrote:
> <<But from a cultural
> perspective, [Weber's] work is excellent in showing how the culture
> developing to
> accommodate capitalism was a practical effort to develop the conceptual
> tools
> necessary to live in a capitalist society.>>
>
[RB]
> Like the development of the giraffe's neck was a practical effort to
develop
> the biological tools necessary to munch on high branches?
>
> Who was the designer?
<<Are you seriously suggesting that I can't distinguish between the
mechanisms
responsible for longer giraffe necks and cultural change are the same?>>
The sentence appears garbled to me. If I get your gist, though, yes, I am
suggesting that differential selection of replicators is one of the forces
behind both longer giraffe necks and cultural change. I further suggest that
the gene is not the only such replicator.
<< If so, I
suggest you go back and reread countless many of my past postings on this
listserv.>>
I've read every word of all your postings. I think the problem is more that
I'm not making myself clear to you than that I don't understand your
postings. If you don't agree, I urge you to tell me the essence of what you
think I've missed in one or two sentences.
<< I would also suggest that you *carefully* read Pinker's How the Mind
Works before you compulsively and automatically reject any notion that
culture
is a practical tool for problem solution.>>
I don't have any dispute with Pinker, whom I've met and like, nor do I tend
to do things either compulsively or automatically on this list. I have no
idea why you would say that I reject any notion that culture is a practical
tool for problem solution. I interpret that to mean that you believe that
cultural solutions to problems will develop without conscious planning. No
one here would disagree with you. The question is, does every single
individual in the society invent the solution on his own, or do a few people
invent the solution and then it spreads memetically?
<< I suspect that your own tendency to
automatically discard such a possibility reflects more your state of mind
living
in Southern California than anything about the nature of culture.>>
I think you have some very interesting ideas about the influence that
environment has on shaping culture. But I don't see why you think it
conflicts with memetics.
<< It was you,
after all, that said that memics >>
Memetics?
<<- and your book - is really only a tool for
getting people to think about their behavior and hardly a scientific
viewpoint.>>
I didn't quite say that, no.
<<In other words, memics>>
memetics?
<< itself is a cultural construction fashioned by you to
resolve problems you deem important.>>
That's a little bit of an odd way to phrase it... I thought it was important
to write the book. Is that what you mean?
<< Do you really want to claim now that all
your memic>>
memetic?
<< productions are just invisible gremlines seeking parasitic
relationships with as many brains as possible? If so, perhaps you could get
help
from the many psychotherapists in your area who are willing to provide you
with
some help on this question.>>
We come back to this. Is there a difference in your mind between a gremlin
and an abstract concept? Water seeks its own level. Can you understand that
without invoking evil spirits? Memes seek to spread themselves. Same thing.
Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
http://www.memecentral.com/rbrodie.htm
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