From: Scott Chase (ecphoric@hotmail.com)
Date: Sat 23 Nov 2002 - 23:56:54 GMT
>From: joedees@bellsouth.net
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: RE: Islam and Europe and the Palestinians and the Left and the
>anti-American Lawry
>Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:48:37 -0600
>
> > Joe is at it again...now focusing his diatribe on the Palestinians.
> > The Palestinians, you see, in Joe's world, abandoned their homes
> > voluntarily. They were really happy, Joe will tell us, to give their
> > lands and homes and political existence to the Israelis. There was of
> > course no such thing as the Dar Yassin massacres, in Joe's particular
> > worldview. There was no such thing as the refusal to allow the
> > Palestinians to return to their country or homes. In later emails,
> > Joe will also probably tell us that the Palestinians who did manage to
> > remain in the territories taken by Israel live as full citizens of
> > Israel, and not as second-class citizens, whose homes are subject to
> > unilateral forfeiture whenever Israel wants them. Really, when you get
> > right down to it in Joe's worldview, the Palestinians have no reason
> > at all to be waging a war against Israel. They are, Joe will tell us,
> > just plain old anti-Jewish and tools of the world-wide cannibalistic
> > memetic Muslim something or other...
> >
>Did you read the quotes I posted? If not, I will post them again for you.
>See if you can pass them through your Jew-hating memetic filters this
>time.
>
>"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of
>the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish
>state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and
>they must share in the solution of the problem."
>“ Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher
>Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6,
>1948.
>
>"The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to
>leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the
>Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help
>these refugees."
>“ The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.
>
>"Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering
>now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal
>leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought
>them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor?
>The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it."
>“ The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.
>
>"The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of
>Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country,
>because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their
>stead."
>“ The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.
>
>"For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who
>are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors
>exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in
>order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish
>atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear
>and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled
>leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."
>“ The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.
>
What about LEHI and Irgun and the events at places such as Deir Yassin? I
haven't been able to delve into Benny Morris's historic treatment of the
nakba of 48 yet, but have read that things are not quite as dandy as the Der
Judenstaat creation myths make them out to be. There was an Arab majority in
the Palestinian portion of the Ottoman empire previous to the aliyahs.
Organized Zionism resulted in an influx of diaspora Jews. Still the
proportions as I recall favored the Arabs. Then during Israel's War of
Independence (aka the Palestinian nakba) there was a displacment of
Palestinian Arabs from Israel proper. This was best for the fledgling
Israeli state if they were to be democratic, since demography favoring Arabs
would not be in their interests at the voting booth.
Part of the reason could have been the Palestinian notables as your quote
imply, but arm-twisting by Jewish terror groups and regulars on the ground
in areas such as Deir Yassin may have provided a little more impetus for
Palestinian Arabs to abandon their homes.
It seems that Israeli Arabs are treated much better than they were in the
early days of Israel. I'm not totally clear, but I think Histadrut allowed
for Arab labor in the 60's and there are Arab political parties who may have
a presence in the Knesset.
The big problem these days are the Occupied Territories and some of the
Jabotinskyian Revisionist hardliners on the Israeli right aren't much better
than their predecessors in the Yishuv terror groups. Most distressing of
these would be Moledet and Kach which have advocated some sort of "transfer"
solution which would be a euphemism for a "trail of tears" and a new nakba
from the Palestinian POV.
>
>Actually, the Palestinians who stayed in Israel proper have been
>granted Israeli citizenship, and are allowed to vote in Israeli
>elections. The 700,000 Jewish refugees displaced by the
>surrounding Muslim countries were accepted into Israel, but the
>surrounding Muslim countries refused to settle the Palestinian
>Muslims within their borders.
>
Haven't Palestinians been assimilated to some degree into Jordanian society?
The PLO had a presence there until the early 70's when King Husayn cracked
down and sent them a-packin' to the Lebanon, which starts a whole different
chapter of Israeli-Arab history. Jordan is pretty much devoid of the great
resources (cough, cough...oil) that Iraq and Saudi Arabia have benefitted
from and they (Jordan) were dependent on British aid IIRC for a while,
especially military aid (ala Glubb Pasha et al). I can't exactly recall
their economic situation in the early days, but they may have had trouble
dealing with a major influx of Palestinian refugees forced at their
doorstep. They did annex the West Bank, so I suppose that was done realizing
what the burden would be.
I recall part of the Balfour declaration taking the plight of Jews in other
countries into consideration and the creation of Israel was an affront to
Arab countries where Jews may have previously had a bearable existence. This
stipulation of the Balfour declaration fell by the wayside when Israel
emerged.
You should read Israeli historians like Avi Shlaim, Benny Morris, and Ahron
Bregman.
>
>The two countries which have
>killed the most palestinians remain Jordan and Syria; Jordan
>killed 20,000 of them in one slaughter, more than Israel has killed
>in its entire existence. Where's your condemnation of THAT
>atrocity?
>
Refresh my memory on this Jordanian slaughter.
>
>I would dearly love to see a two-state solution with Israel and
>Palestine living side-by-side in peace and harmony, and sharing as
>their common capitol the internationalized city of Jerusalem.
>However, the Palestinian that negotiates such a settlement will be
>assassinated by elements of Hamas, Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad,
>Tanzim, the Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade or some other indigenous
>Radical Muslim terror organization, much as Israel's Yitzhak
>Rabin, who was trying to do the same, was killed by a Jewish
>Zionist extremist.
> >
> > Now Joe will run off to his true-blue websites (the more anonymous or
> > bigoted or self-serving the better!) and conjure up another round of
> > bit extractions from reality, with which Joe populates his worldview.
> >
>The websites I have pulled from include the New Yorker, the Atlantic
>Monthly, Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Policy Review, MEMRI, etc.
>They are neither anonymous nor bigoted nor self-serving. And where
>does Lawry get documentation to support his vicious assertions against
>me and afainst anyone who would dispute his narrow-minded and
>propagandistic view? Of, that's right, he doesn't bother with such things
>at all, does he?
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> > > Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002
> > > 4:06 PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Islam and Europe and Joe
> > >
> > >
> > > > At 12:40 PM 23/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
> > > > >> At 12:37 PM 22/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Hi, Scott,
> > > > >> >By 'anti-Semitic' I mean bigoted against any or all Semitic
> > > > >> >races, including Arabs. Islam, being a religion, would not be
> > > > >> >included, though of course many Muslims are Arabs and vice
> > > > >> >versa. My experience of bigots is that their bigotry can swing
> > > > >> >around at anytime to attack anyone who is 'different,' so it
> > > > >> >should not bring much comfort to Jews - or anyone else - that
> > > > >> >Joe has so far focused his anti-Semitism on Arabs and Muslims.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think that we need to separate Zionism, (an aggressive
> > > > >> political position which supports the creation of the Greater
> > > > >> Israeli State, genocide and ethnic cleansing), Judaism (the
> > > > >> religion) and Jews (the Jewish people). The area of land
> > > > >> claimed by Zion is that which was 'given' to Abraham and his
> > > > >> descendants by his God in a 'vision'. I've always thought that
> > > > >> it was fairly suspect land deal (no witnesses). See Gen. 15:
> > > > >> 18-21. Personally I don't mind Judaism or Jews but I think that
> > > > >> the US backed Zionist movement is the most dangerous political
> > > > >> force in the World today. <snip>
> > > > >>
> > > > >I must disagree with you, and so must most of the non-Muslim
> > > > >world. The most dangerous political force in the world today,
> > > > >wreaking havoc
> > > > > and terror across the globe from Bali to Kashmir to Jerusalem to
> > > > > New York, is undoubtedly the memeset of Radical Islam.
> > > > >>
> > > > Joe as I read it, even Osama was reacting against US/Israeli
> > > > persecution and expansionism.
> > > >
> > > Actually, what originally pissed him off was the Saudi family
> > > blowing off his offer for his four thousand (at the time) mujaheddin
> > > to defend Saudi Arabia in a jihad against Iraq before the start of
> > > the Gulf War twelve years ago, and instead bringing in the
> > > disgusting, hated, despised, Godless infidel unbeliever US to defend
> > > the holy Mecca and Medina, and sully the sacred soil of the Muslim
> > > Holy Sand. He used his other two points - the Palestinian situation
> > > and a later inverted sympathy for the very Iraq he offered to fight
> > > - as ways to sway gullible jihadist wannabees into making the
> > > commitment to join his terror army.
> > > >
> > > >I have not read anywhere that he was
> > > > attempting to convert the world to Islam - as you keep saying. The
> > > > requests from most of the Muslim world are as stated by Al Baz in
> > > > the piece that I sent you. If those four conditions were met the
> > > > Islamofasists, as you name them rightly, would have no more
> > > > support base than the KKK has in Christendom. The problem is the
> > > > aggressive Zionist expansionism.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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