Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id IAA04820 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:46:55 +0100 Message-ID: <20000601074420.4651.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [212.140.124.18] From: "Paul marsden" <paulsmarsden@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Cui Bono Chuck? Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:44:20 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
And of course you are correct. BUT, there are models and there are models.
The
underlying argument is really about the adequacy of the model. I have asked
repeatedly on this forum what advantage the meme concept has in positing an
independent existence to memes as opposed to seeing whatever behavior is
studied
as a product of a mind that is using tools to live in an environment. -- and
that these tools can be more or less effective or even so wrong headed that
they
may lead to the extinction of our species. It looks to me -- and many others
-- like a belief in gremlins. In fact many reviewers say that the Blackmore's latest book makes excellent reading if seen as science fiction.>The answers I have recieved so far are: 1) don't worry about it because >it's only a >rhetorical device to get people to think about how they >behave, 2) memics isn't a >science anyway, but a point of view, and 3) >memics makes excellent predictions >(although the particulars are always >left out). The problem with these answers >is that memics is posing as a >science by borrowing the gene metaphor. And if >you look at some of the >posts carefully, most people here are taking the metaphor >far more >seriously than just another point of view.
There are many ways of assessing the utility of a model - but ontological truth is not one of them: For me, what memetics brings to the table is that insight into cultural dynamics can be gained, not just by focusing at the level of the individual (psychology) or the group (sociology), but also the level of cultural instructions (as one conceptualisation of information) themselves (memetics) – a concrete example is the account of suicide I offered. Indeed the reflexive nature of cultural groups/meme (groups may be defined in terms of memes) provides a model to account for cultural group selection without the reification of the group (a la Durkheim)
A good practical example of the potential power of memetics is If Price’s book – Shifting the Patterns – that takes a meme’s eye view of organisations; although I had problems with the precise operationalisation of the meme concept – the book provides an insightful memetic stance into corporate life.
Another good example is Richard Brodie’s Virus of the Mind, which provides a meme-eye level reworking of the social influence literature providing new insight into an old subject
And Aaron Lynch’s Thought Contagion provides a sweeping tour of the potential power of memetics – although he and I may disagree (sometimes quite publicly) on the *details* of how a memetic stance might be operationalised and memetics made progressive, Aaron demonstrates very clearly the power of memetics to generate interesting research hypotheses not intuitively available when culture is viewed exclusively from group/individual levels.
In ,memetics is useful because it provides another way of looking at things - bringing otherwise adumbrated features into sharper relief
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