Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA28027 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 24 May 2000 18:59:45 +0100 Message-ID: <392BD1BC.9FCAA418@mediaone.net> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:57:32 +0100 From: chuck <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: What is "useful"; what is "survival" References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1DA@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
seppuku
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> Isn't that what Chuck is arguing though, that sociobiology offers a simple
> answer to such questions by evaluating all behaviours in terms of genetic
> advantage/utility in particular environmental contexts?
I am not arguing that it is a simple answer; I am arguing that it is as simple
as basic evolutionary theory -- which in practice is quite complex.
> My precise point is that things like seppuku can't be simply explained by
> sociobiology, indeed if at all, other than as an abberation,
"Abberation"? Have you looked closely at it? Do you understand Japanese society
at all? I sort of doubt it. I suspect it seems an aberration to you because it
certainly would be in any western society.
I don't know a lot about seppuku, but it seems to have something to do with
saving the reputation. One reason, for example, was to atone for failure to
carry out duties - which might include losing a battle. There is absolutely
nothing difficult to understand about it. The fundamental difference between
many oriental societies and most Western societies is the importance of
reputation. Because each extended family in the former tend to remain in the
same geographical space for centuries, reputation is a very valuable commodity
because it is a highly accurate measure of trustworthiness. Soiling that
reputation causes terrible consequences for a lot of people, and suicide is a
way of cleansing the family of the wrongful act. If an individual samurai did
it, (I am not sure if they had extended families since I think they were
mercenaries) it was probably because he had lost his most precious commodity,
his reputation; that is, no one could any longer trust him. That's my guess, but
knowing what I know generally about the lengths to which honor is defended in
other societies that depend highly on reputation, I think it's a good bet. In
any of those societies, a stain against your honor will seriously hamper you the
rest of your life. It's not so aberrant as the ceremonial elaboration might
suggest.
To repeat: understanding the utility of an act is not necessarily simple. I had
to do a lot of work over several years with how different types of societies
establish trust. The principle is simple, but the details can be quite complex.
> mistake or
> failure, which is no more satisfactory than Marx's dismissal of 'happy'
> workers as false consciousness.
>
> One can consider more curious and subtle cultural variences than suicide,
> celibacy or human sacrifice, such as the ways one reads different kinds of
> writing (e.g. left to right versus right to left). How did these apparently
> arbitrary systems of writing spread over many different countries and
> languages- where's the greater utility in left to right or right to left?
>
> It is in this sense that I think something else is going on, on top of
> natural selection not independent of it, influencing human behaviour, that
> requires investigation.
>
> Vincent
> > ----------
> > From: Wade T.Smith
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:30 pm
> > To: memetics list
> > Subject: RE: What is "useful"; what is "survival"
> >
> > On 05/24/00 06:49, Vincent Campbell said this-
> >
> > >(The point about seppuku, was that this is a ritual behaviour that has
> > >persisted for many generations explicitly involving suicide- how do you
> > >explain it?)
> >
> > Perhaps with the same breath that explains Clinton's _not_ performing
> > such a ceremony in the face of precisely a situation in which the
> > nipponese culture would demand it.
> >
> > Which is to say, there is no simple explanation for the strength of a
> > culture or the directions is allows.
> >
> > - Wade
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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