Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA13974 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 19 May 2000 13:15:40 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1BD@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Central questions of memetics Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:13:31 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I think other examples have been suggested on this list, if not accepted.
The subject of advertising was discussed, and the discussion gave us the
example of advertising slogans that people remember from products they never
needed, wanted or purchased. [although you didn't buy that one :-)]
I latched onto the inadvertent example of popular sayings whose meanings
have long since become blurred or transposed onto other things, or have
persisted despite their overt lack of meaning (with Wade, I think it was
Wade, mentioning the chicken and the egg).
> ----------
> From: Chuck Palson
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 10:28 am
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
>
>
>
> Vincent Campbell wrote:
>
> > So you give us the annoying ditties do you?
> >
> > Do you accept these as something natural selection can't explain, or
> just as
> > something you personally can't explain?
>
> At this point the two are the same. It is interesting, though that it is
> the
> only example anyone has offered in more than a week. If everyone here is
> right
> that useless memes are at least common, one would have expected a flood of
> suggestions.
>
> BUT, as I think about it now, I think it is significant that in this one
> example
> that has been offered, people don't say "Oh, a useless meme" and remain
> neutral
> about it. They hope they can stop thinking about it because it is
> annoying. In
> other words, it seems to me if useless memes were so common, we would know
> immediately because they are annoying, yet no one has offered one.
>
> But now, I am thinking of another possibility. Most of the memes that
> people
> suggest are useless (skateboards, crazes, etc) are in fact useless *to
> them*.
> They must somehow live with them because they live in a complex society.
> So what
> does that prove about memes? It proves that some people don't accept
> certain
> memes because they are useless.
>
> >
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Chuck Palson
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 11:47 am
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Robin Faichney wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, 16 May 2000, Vincent Campbell wrote:
> > > > >Excellent example of a purely cultural function of an object, and
> this
> > > then
> > > > >begs the questions I'm interested in - where did cultures come
> from,
> > > why do
> > > > >we have them and other animals don't, and how do cultures
> > > > >persist/develop/change?
> > > >
> > > > Despite the which-came-first question, in this case with regard to
> memes
> > > and
> > > > expanded brains, I'm convinced that culture is inevitable where
> > > sociability
> > > > meets sufficient intelligence. To put this another way, memes
> require
> > > (a)
> > > > means of transmission between individuals, and specifically the
> tendency
> > > for
> > > > them to copy each other's behaviour, and (b) "spare" information
> > > processing
> > > > capacity, facilitating behaviour that's not too strictly tied to
> > > immediate
> > > > survival. Because despite Chuck's insistence on usefulness, I think
> > > it's
> > > > very clear that the overwhelming mass of culture is anything but
> that --
> > > tied
> > > > to immediate survival, I mean.
> > >
> > > See what you think of the notion of survival after reading my recent
> post
> > > on the
> > > subject.
> > >
> > > > Entertainment value seems much more
> > > > significant than actual practical usefulness, and if you widen
> "useful"
> > > to
> > > > include "entertaining", then I think it ("useful") loses its
> usefulness
> > > (and
> > > > it's not terribly entertaining either).
> > >
> > > A lot of people say almost as a matter of faith that Darwin's theory
> is
> > > meaningless because it can be applied to everything. They even claim
> that
> > > it is
> > > tautological because the actual survival is supposed to be the
> explanatory
> > > factor. And indeed, you might be suspicious of a theory that explains
> > > everything.
> > > Trouble is, it does -- so far -- because there are ways to falsify the
> > > theory. If
> > > someone could find an organism that just popped out of nowhere or a
> change
> > > that
> > > did not benefit the replicator, the theory is disproven.
> > >
> > > So you provide me with a example of a meme (besides the annoying ditty
> > > that keeps
> > > repeating itself in your head) that is not useful in either direct
> > > practical
> > > terms or indirectly through establishment of alliances and status
> (which
> > > in turn
> > > lead to access to material resources), and you have falisfied my
> theory.
> > > Your
> > > frustration that I do find usefulness where you find only triviality
> is a
> > > comment
> > > on the differences we have in method and theory.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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