Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA13898 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 19 May 2000 13:05:10 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1BC@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Central questions of memetics Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:03:02 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Chuck, you said:-
> Actual history rarely if ever gets preserved. [actual historical events
> don't get preserved, sure] They don't get preserved in any meaningful
> sense just because they are put on videos or appear once on the news.
> They get preserved when people watch them and decide to make it part of
> their
> "lessons of the past" file. Again, if you are interested in this
> particular
> process for some reason, fine. But it has no broad effect on the overall
> society
> -- which is, frankly, what I am interested in because of my evolutionary
> interests. That's the only reason why memes caught my attention in the
> first
> place -- because of the claims that it has something to do with evolution.
>
So history doesn't get preserved in any meaningful sense by its recording in
some form or other? I really can't believe you've said that. I think, just
for my addled brain, you need to explain or clarify that.
And cults not having impacts on overall society? Christianity was a cult at
its outset.
> ----------
> From: Chuck Palson
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 10:22 am
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
>
>
>
> Vincent Campbell wrote:
>
> > Surely it doesn't matter if a meme's survival is marginal, what matters
> is
> > it's survival? So, 'you might get a few copycats'- that's the point
> exactly.
> >
>
> OK - if you want to make that the point, than that's the point. It becomes
> relevant if, for some reason, you think those groups have some relevance
> to a
> problem you want to know about. Practically speaking, if these groups keep
> blowing up buildings, the police agencies want to know more about how
> those
> memes get perpetuated. So they study not just the memes themselves -- as
> some
> memists would do -- but the psychology of certain marginal types, because
> that
> has a lot to do with it.
>
> >
> > Besides, when you look at cults in 'all of history', what you don't see
> is
> > the means of cults preserving their beliefs in things like home videos,
> and
> > websites, and gore-happy news media coverage.
> >
>
> Actual history rarely if ever gets preserved. They don't get preserved in
> any
> meaningful sense just because they are put on videos or appear once on the
> news.
> They get preserved when people watch them and decide to make it part of
> their
> "lessons of the past" file. Again, if you are interested in this
> particular
> process for some reason, fine. But it has no broad effect on the overall
> society
> -- which is, frankly, what I am interested in because of my evolutionary
> interests. That's the only reason why memes caught my attention in the
> first
> place -- because of the claims that it has something to do with evolution.
>
> >
> > My point about doomsday cults was that people believe weird things that
> > don't happen, like the world ending, and continue to believe even when
> those
> > things don't happen. Utility and accuracy aren't relevant in cults,
> whether
> > they are suicidal or doomsday cults (and there's a lot of overlap,
> funnily
> > enough).
>
> Yes, that's all true. But they are nevertheless marginal and don't
> represent the
> broad society of a longer period of time. If they did, the human race
> would
> disappear quite quickly.
>
> >
> >
> > Vincent
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Chuck Palson
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 2:37 pm
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Vincent Campbell wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm not sure about this line of argument about cults as failures.
> > > >
> > > > Mass suicide's may kill off all or most of the followers (someone
> always
> > > > escapes, or leaves prior to the suicide/massacre, who retains
> knowledge
> > > of
> > > > the cult's beliefs, as from Heaven's Gate, as from Jonestown, as
> from
> > > the
> > > > Branch Davidians), but the ideas of the cult needn't be killed off,
> > > indeed
> > > > transmission of the cult's beliefs may actually increase because the
> > > mass
> > > > suicide may draw massive attention from the rest of society. Note
> how
> > > both
> > > > the Davidians and the H.Gate groups made home videos talking about
> their
> > > > beliefs and what they were doing, in Jonestown, the massacre was
> > > recorded in
> > > > (chilling) audio. Books have been written, documentaries have been
> > > about
> > > > such groups etc. etc. so the messages are still being transmitted,
> > > waiting
> > > > for another person or group of people to give the meme another boost
> via
> > > a
> > > > mass suicide. Death of the person doesn't necessarily mean death of
> the
> > > > meme (the cruxification anyone?, or at the other pole of death
> > > contributing
> > > > to the perpetuation of religious belief- mass human sacrifices
> amongst
> > > the
> > > > Aztecs?).
> > >
> > > I haven't seen any evidence in all of history that the suicide of a
> group
> > > furthers the ideas of a group in anything but a marginal way. Yes, you
> > > might get
> > > some scattered copycats, but nothing beyond that.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Interestingly, some psychologists have studied doomsday cults and
> what
> > > > happens when dates of the supposed 'end of the world' come and go
> > > without
> > > > anything happening. Remarkably, and counter-intuitively perhaps,
> > > support
> > > > for the cults' beliefs strengthens amongst most members rather than
> > > > dissipate. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a good example here, since
> > > although
> > > > they were quite quiet over the millenium, they have suggested
> several
> > > dates
> > > > in the 20th Century as the end of the world (quite a few in the
> 1910s
> > > and
> > > > 1920s), and yet they are still very much in existence.
> > >
> > > Yes - but this is hardly suicide -- which I have noticed seems to have
> a
> > > finality about it.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So, following this line of argument it is indeed a question of the
> memes
> > > > being the important thing to analyse.
> > > >
> > > > Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > From: Lawrence H. de Bivort
> > > > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 5:09 am
> > > > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck Palson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >I think I answered this in another form yesterday - but it goes
> like
> > > > > this. Yes,
> > > > > >people do hold beliefs on the basis of their _apparent_
> usefulness,
> > > and
> > > > > most
> > > > > >beliefs in an ongoing society _are_ accurate or the society would
> > > > > collapse
> > > > > >pretty fast. It is up to the scientist to figure out how these
> > > beliefs
> > > > > are
> > > > > >useful because people can't always make that conscious -- because
> it
> > > > > often does
> > > > > >them no good to be able to verbalize it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think "usefulness" is a significant element in the spread of
> memes
> > > --
> > > > > quite possibly necessary but not sufficient. (Among the other
> elements
> > > > > also necessary are a number of architectural characteristics that
> have
> > > to
> > > > > do with simplicity, defense, etc.). Now, by 'useful' I am thinkign
> > > quite
> > > > > broadly, to include memes that are perceived as useful, truly
> useful,
> > > > > short-term useful, long-term, etc. There must be a _reason for the
> > > > > adoption of the meme, and the architectural components are not
> > > themselves
> > > > > sufficient.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also have found that people _can_ express the utility of a meme
> to
> > > them
> > > > > quite easily, if questioned effectively.
> > > > >
> > > > > The ditty stuck in a person's head....is it useful? I have been
> > > following
> > > > > this discussion with lots of interest, and would offer this
> thought:
> > > it
> > > > > may be that the _mechanism_ through which the brain registers the
> > > ditty is
> > > > > a mechanism that has some other (and more recognizably useful)
> > > function,
> > > > > and that its (unfortunate) ability to remember useless ditties is
> > > > > incidental. (Perhaps there are auditory characteristics of
> successful
> > > > > ditties that are important for other reasons, and the ditties
> merely
> > > > > contain these characteristics.)
> > > > >
> > > > > I do use the presupposition that _everything_ a person does, from
> a
> > > > > behavior to a belief to a statement, is useful to that person,
> whether
> > > it
> > > > > is in ways that can understand or verbalize, or not. This
> > > presupposition,
> > > > > which is one I use for utterly pragmatic reasons, may be coloring
> the
> > > way
> > > > > I think of memes.
> > > > >
> > > > > >> If the
> > > > > >> beliefs help their adherents survive better, that more fits
> what I
> > > said
> > > > > >> about leading to (presumably) a more desirable life. But
> certainly
> > > > > there are
> > > > > >> examples of religions, such as Koresh and Heaven's Gate, that
> do
> > > not
> > > > > enhance
> > > > > >> survival but just the reverse.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Yes - and they don't last. They were the failed experiments.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, let us simply suppose that the 'purpose' of a meme lies in
> the
> > > > > intent of its designer, in those cases where it is designed, and
> > > > > deliberately released. One can easily imagine an intention other
> than
> > > that
> > > > > the meme itself survive. (This notion of the controlling goal of
> > > > > 'survival' is one of the weaknesses that memetics seems to be
> saddled
> > > with
> > > > > by those who would equate in the social sphere a meme to a gene.)
> > > > > Supposing the Heaven's Gate meme(s) _were_ designed not with the
> > > meme's
> > > > > survival in mind, but with the suicide of the group's adherents,
> or to
> > > put
> > > > > it perhaps more precisely, with their 'travel' post-Earth to
> wherever.
> > > The
> > > > > meme, in guiding them to this end, certainly would have achieved
> the
> > > > > intent of its designer, though the meme itself expired. Nothing
> wrong
> > > with
> > > > > that. I see meems as tools, and the important thing is what is
> > > > > accomplished with the tool, not the tool itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Lawrence
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > |---------------------------------------------|
> > > > > | ESI |
> > > > > | Evolutionary Services Institute |
> > > > > | "Crafting opportunities for a better world" |
> > > > > | 5504 Scioto Road, Bethesda, MD 20816, USA |
> > > > > | (301) 320-3941 |
> > > > > |---------------------------------------------|
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ===============================================================
> > > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> Transmission
> > > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g.
> unsubscribing)
> > > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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