Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA00757 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 17 May 2000 15:10:13 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1A3@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: A response Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:16:12 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Interesting comments Bruce, and apologies for butting in on direct responses
to Tyger and Chuck. Who says the British are mild-mannered and polite? :-)
Just one quick point to make here, and that is I note your conflating of the
terms culture and society, and as I have said elswhere we need to make a
distinction between the two.
Just a quick aside also, I thought the Inca died out because of the
conquistadors, or was that the Aztecs, or both? Even if my South American
history is wrong (and probably is), I don't know my building, but does
stucco have a practical use, or is it simply for decoration? If the latter,
then why did the Incas continue to devestate essential resources for
decorative purposes, assuming at some point they would have recognised this?
I don't pretend to know the exact origin of Jerry rigging, but it's still
used in the UK by quite a lot of people, perhaps because of continual
difficult relations with Germany (most recently over BMW's attempts to sell
off Rover, known to BMW quite wittily as 'the english patient', but quite
often in relation to football (soccer), because the Germans have the upper
hand in recent footbal matches). Another good example, that my parents once
told me to my utter horror, was the term 'nigger brown', used so widely that
my dad even bought a suit once that was described that way in the shop
(store).
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Bruce Jones
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 1:16 pm
> To: 'Chuck Palson'; 'Tyger'
> Cc: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: A response
>
> Tyger and Chuck!
> You asked a question and I responded from a different e-dress and not sure
> it went through. I am sending you each a copy and reposting to the group.
> Thank You
> Bruce
>
>
> Chuck:
>
> Thank you for calling me on this one.
>
> I said that as systems get simpler the organisms within the systems get
> more
> selfish to survive. You asked for examples:
>
> What I needed to say was that as systems become more organized the
> organisms
> get more selfish. You then said,"or is it the niches they find?"
>
> It is, to some extent, both. The sabertooth cats became so dependent upon
> their food source that they became overly specialized for their niche.
> When
> the food source died off or changed the sabertooth did not change and died
> off. However, an example of an organism that became more selfish as their
> system became more organized is man. As man organized into first clans
> than
> villages then cities than states and countries they became more selfish
> demanding more and more from the organization. This selfishness has led to
> technological development and resource exploitation. As the resources were
> used up or exploited beyond regrowth the civilizations and persons within
> them either disappeared or were absorbed by societies that used different
> resources or the same ones differently. A prime example are the
> civilizations of pre-historic Mexico and South America. The leading theory
> at this time is the Incas used up the forests in the production of the
> stucco they covered all their buildings with. As the forests disappeared
> their economy and culture failed and they disappeared as a culture. They
> became selfish beyond their means to support their culture.
>
> Tyger:
>
> A prime example, at least in America, of a meme that has mutated in
> response
> to the cultural (societal) polarity is a statement meaning to concoct a
> solution that makes something work but may fall apart or is of low
> quality;
> "Niger rigging". This is a saying that was begun in the USA during or
> after
> the Civil War to indicate a fix of inferior quality. In the North it was
> also known as, "Southern Engineering". Both terms are derogatory in nature
> and are meant as an insult. As memes they survived in a negative cultural
> context. Social pressures have sentenced the first of these terms to
> extinction but allowed the second to survive. Around 1935 - 1945 another
> term, meaning the same thing, came into vogue and that is "Jerry Rigging".
> This term is of course a putdown to the German nation which, as everybody
> knows, was in the middle of attempting to dominate Europe. Both terms
> still
> exist even though I doubt that one in ten of any persons under the age of
> 30
> can tell you the derivation of "Jerry Rigged" and why it is a negative
> term
> based on that definition. Most will probably say it is a replacement for
> the
> original saying which is correct but not know about the rest of it.
>
> A meme that shows a polarity switch is the word Gay. One hundred years ago
> the 1890's were known as the Gay nineties. The society was known as a gay
> society. This of course was a description of the party like atmosphere of
> the times and was very positive. You might call the 1990's the gay
> nineties
> also but the scenario this brings to the forefront is anything but
> positive.
> " Coming out", sexual bias, Gay rights, AIDS, HIV, have negative polarity
> for a majority of the worlds population.
>
> The culture of a meme is of course - society. If a meme enters a societies
> lexicon it will either be positive or negative based on the need for one
> or
> the other. As the views and attitudes of the originating culture change
> the
> meme will be dropped or mutated to reflect a new attitude or view. A meme
> brought up earlier in this discussion was "Elvis Lives". There are several
> that follow this line. One is "Elvis has left the building." This term
> struggles to survive but is heard in one of two ways: 1) That person's ego
> has left the building - or - 2) My ego has left the building. Others have
> been inserted into the languages of various countries. These memes are
> based
> on cultural and societal norms and traditions .... I do not even pretend
> to
> know what they are ..... does anybody have any regional or local memes
> that
> would fit the definitions stated here?
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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