Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id QAA20030 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 16 May 2000 16:44:02 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1A0@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Central questions of memetics Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:34:39 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I'm not sure about this line of argument about cults as failures.
Mass suicide's may kill off all or most of the followers (someone always
escapes, or leaves prior to the suicide/massacre, who retains knowledge of
the cult's beliefs, as from Heaven's Gate, as from Jonestown, as from the
Branch Davidians), but the ideas of the cult needn't be killed off, indeed
transmission of the cult's beliefs may actually increase because the mass
suicide may draw massive attention from the rest of society. Note how both
the Davidians and the H.Gate groups made home videos talking about their
beliefs and what they were doing, in Jonestown, the massacre was recorded in
(chilling) audio. Books have been written, documentaries have been about
such groups etc. etc. so the messages are still being transmitted, waiting
for another person or group of people to give the meme another boost via a
mass suicide. Death of the person doesn't necessarily mean death of the
meme (the cruxification anyone?, or at the other pole of death contributing
to the perpetuation of religious belief- mass human sacrifices amongst the
Aztecs?).
Interestingly, some psychologists have studied doomsday cults and what
happens when dates of the supposed 'end of the world' come and go without
anything happening. Remarkably, and counter-intuitively perhaps, support
for the cults' beliefs strengthens amongst most members rather than
dissipate. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a good example here, since although
they were quite quiet over the millenium, they have suggested several dates
in the 20th Century as the end of the world (quite a few in the 1910s and
1920s), and yet they are still very much in existence.
So, following this line of argument it is indeed a question of the memes
being the important thing to analyse.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Lawrence H. de Bivort
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 5:09 am
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
>
> On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck Palson wrote:
>
> >I think I answered this in another form yesterday - but it goes like
> this. Yes,
> >people do hold beliefs on the basis of their _apparent_ usefulness, and
> most
> >beliefs in an ongoing society _are_ accurate or the society would
> collapse
> >pretty fast. It is up to the scientist to figure out how these beliefs
> are
> >useful because people can't always make that conscious -- because it
> often does
> >them no good to be able to verbalize it.
>
> I think "usefulness" is a significant element in the spread of memes --
> quite possibly necessary but not sufficient. (Among the other elements
> also necessary are a number of architectural characteristics that have to
> do with simplicity, defense, etc.). Now, by 'useful' I am thinkign quite
> broadly, to include memes that are perceived as useful, truly useful,
> short-term useful, long-term, etc. There must be a _reason for the
> adoption of the meme, and the architectural components are not themselves
> sufficient.
>
> I also have found that people _can_ express the utility of a meme to them
> quite easily, if questioned effectively.
>
> The ditty stuck in a person's head....is it useful? I have been following
> this discussion with lots of interest, and would offer this thought: it
> may be that the _mechanism_ through which the brain registers the ditty is
> a mechanism that has some other (and more recognizably useful) function,
> and that its (unfortunate) ability to remember useless ditties is
> incidental. (Perhaps there are auditory characteristics of successful
> ditties that are important for other reasons, and the ditties merely
> contain these characteristics.)
>
> I do use the presupposition that _everything_ a person does, from a
> behavior to a belief to a statement, is useful to that person, whether it
> is in ways that can understand or verbalize, or not. This presupposition,
> which is one I use for utterly pragmatic reasons, may be coloring the way
> I think of memes.
>
> >> If the
> >> beliefs help their adherents survive better, that more fits what I said
> >> about leading to (presumably) a more desirable life. But certainly
> there are
> >> examples of religions, such as Koresh and Heaven's Gate, that do not
> enhance
> >> survival but just the reverse.
> >
> >Yes - and they don't last. They were the failed experiments.
>
> Well, let us simply suppose that the 'purpose' of a meme lies in the
> intent of its designer, in those cases where it is designed, and
> deliberately released. One can easily imagine an intention other than that
> the meme itself survive. (This notion of the controlling goal of
> 'survival' is one of the weaknesses that memetics seems to be saddled with
> by those who would equate in the social sphere a meme to a gene.)
> Supposing the Heaven's Gate meme(s) _were_ designed not with the meme's
> survival in mind, but with the suicide of the group's adherents, or to put
> it perhaps more precisely, with their 'travel' post-Earth to wherever. The
> meme, in guiding them to this end, certainly would have achieved the
> intent of its designer, though the meme itself expired. Nothing wrong with
> that. I see meems as tools, and the important thing is what is
> accomplished with the tool, not the tool itself.
>
> - Lawrence
>
>
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> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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