Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA00666 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 17 May 2000 15:09:17 +0100 Message-ID: <39214EFE.7A10E1CB@mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:37:02 +0100 From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1A0@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> I'm not sure about this line of argument about cults as failures.
>
> Mass suicide's may kill off all or most of the followers (someone always
> escapes, or leaves prior to the suicide/massacre, who retains knowledge of
> the cult's beliefs, as from Heaven's Gate, as from Jonestown, as from the
> Branch Davidians), but the ideas of the cult needn't be killed off, indeed
> transmission of the cult's beliefs may actually increase because the mass
> suicide may draw massive attention from the rest of society. Note how both
> the Davidians and the H.Gate groups made home videos talking about their
> beliefs and what they were doing, in Jonestown, the massacre was recorded in
> (chilling) audio. Books have been written, documentaries have been about
> such groups etc. etc. so the messages are still being transmitted, waiting
> for another person or group of people to give the meme another boost via a
> mass suicide. Death of the person doesn't necessarily mean death of the
> meme (the cruxification anyone?, or at the other pole of death contributing
> to the perpetuation of religious belief- mass human sacrifices amongst the
> Aztecs?).
I haven't seen any evidence in all of history that the suicide of a group
furthers the ideas of a group in anything but a marginal way. Yes, you might get
some scattered copycats, but nothing beyond that.
>
>
> Interestingly, some psychologists have studied doomsday cults and what
> happens when dates of the supposed 'end of the world' come and go without
> anything happening. Remarkably, and counter-intuitively perhaps, support
> for the cults' beliefs strengthens amongst most members rather than
> dissipate. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a good example here, since although
> they were quite quiet over the millenium, they have suggested several dates
> in the 20th Century as the end of the world (quite a few in the 1910s and
> 1920s), and yet they are still very much in existence.
Yes - but this is hardly suicide -- which I have noticed seems to have a
finality about it.
>
>
> So, following this line of argument it is indeed a question of the memes
> being the important thing to analyse.
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Lawrence H. de Bivort
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 5:09 am
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> >
> > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck Palson wrote:
> >
> > >I think I answered this in another form yesterday - but it goes like
> > this. Yes,
> > >people do hold beliefs on the basis of their _apparent_ usefulness, and
> > most
> > >beliefs in an ongoing society _are_ accurate or the society would
> > collapse
> > >pretty fast. It is up to the scientist to figure out how these beliefs
> > are
> > >useful because people can't always make that conscious -- because it
> > often does
> > >them no good to be able to verbalize it.
> >
> > I think "usefulness" is a significant element in the spread of memes --
> > quite possibly necessary but not sufficient. (Among the other elements
> > also necessary are a number of architectural characteristics that have to
> > do with simplicity, defense, etc.). Now, by 'useful' I am thinkign quite
> > broadly, to include memes that are perceived as useful, truly useful,
> > short-term useful, long-term, etc. There must be a _reason for the
> > adoption of the meme, and the architectural components are not themselves
> > sufficient.
> >
> > I also have found that people _can_ express the utility of a meme to them
> > quite easily, if questioned effectively.
> >
> > The ditty stuck in a person's head....is it useful? I have been following
> > this discussion with lots of interest, and would offer this thought: it
> > may be that the _mechanism_ through which the brain registers the ditty is
> > a mechanism that has some other (and more recognizably useful) function,
> > and that its (unfortunate) ability to remember useless ditties is
> > incidental. (Perhaps there are auditory characteristics of successful
> > ditties that are important for other reasons, and the ditties merely
> > contain these characteristics.)
> >
> > I do use the presupposition that _everything_ a person does, from a
> > behavior to a belief to a statement, is useful to that person, whether it
> > is in ways that can understand or verbalize, or not. This presupposition,
> > which is one I use for utterly pragmatic reasons, may be coloring the way
> > I think of memes.
> >
> > >> If the
> > >> beliefs help their adherents survive better, that more fits what I said
> > >> about leading to (presumably) a more desirable life. But certainly
> > there are
> > >> examples of religions, such as Koresh and Heaven's Gate, that do not
> > enhance
> > >> survival but just the reverse.
> > >
> > >Yes - and they don't last. They were the failed experiments.
> >
> > Well, let us simply suppose that the 'purpose' of a meme lies in the
> > intent of its designer, in those cases where it is designed, and
> > deliberately released. One can easily imagine an intention other than that
> > the meme itself survive. (This notion of the controlling goal of
> > 'survival' is one of the weaknesses that memetics seems to be saddled with
> > by those who would equate in the social sphere a meme to a gene.)
> > Supposing the Heaven's Gate meme(s) _were_ designed not with the meme's
> > survival in mind, but with the suicide of the group's adherents, or to put
> > it perhaps more precisely, with their 'travel' post-Earth to wherever. The
> > meme, in guiding them to this end, certainly would have achieved the
> > intent of its designer, though the meme itself expired. Nothing wrong with
> > that. I see meems as tools, and the important thing is what is
> > accomplished with the tool, not the tool itself.
> >
> > - Lawrence
> >
> >
> > |---------------------------------------------|
> > | ESI |
> > | Evolutionary Services Institute |
> > | "Crafting opportunities for a better world" |
> > | 5504 Scioto Road, Bethesda, MD 20816, USA |
> > | (301) 320-3941 |
> > |---------------------------------------------|
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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