Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA14420 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 16 May 2000 12:17:21 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB198@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Useless memes Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:15:09 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I'd agree that wars involve, in their instigation the propagation of memes
(e.g. that wars are just, and our soldiers are on the side of right etc.).
Vietnam has remained a problem within the wider American memeplex ('the
American way') because both internal dissent and battlefield defeat
fundamentally undermined part of the American memeplex's truth-trick (moral
and material superiority to other nations).
Your comments about others wars, however, demonstrate how the American
memeplex is very strong and able to turn international wars into American
wars (the Gulf and Kosovo), something equally evident in Hollywood cinema.
According the films like 'Saving Private Ryan', or the current 'U-571', key
events in WWII occured with only American involvement, in the case of the
former film, or with American rather than anyone else, as in the case of
'U-571' where the British capture of a German enigma machine, which was kept
secret from the Americans for some time is presented as having been the
capture of an enigma machine by Americans. This is done with Vietnam also,
with few Hollywood films mentioning anything about Australian soldiers'
experiences, whilst the context of French colonialism is also ignored.
I should say I'm no militarist or nationalist, it's just interesting how
nations remember times of crisis in very selective ways hence Benedict
Anderson's idea of nations as 'Imagined Communities', or as I suppose a
memeticist would say, as memeplexes.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Lawrence H. de Bivort
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 4:44 pm
> To: memetics list
> Subject: RE: Useless memes
>
> On Fri, 12 May 2000, Wade T.Smith wrote:
>
> >On 05/12/00 10:26, Lawrence H. de Bivort said this-
> >
> >>I guess my favorite would have to be "Out Now!" This caught on rapidly
> as
> >>the slogan on the anti-VietNam war movement, and helped people focus and
> >>act on the key issue.
> >
> >Hmmm. I was here, and that particular phrase does not register with me.
> >The phrase that registers with me is "*Hell, no, we won't go!"
>
> I think the "hell no, we won't go" phrase was linked with anti-draft
> sentiment, which I see as a sub-set of the anti-war movement. "Out
> Now" could be used by people who were not intrinsically concerned with the
> draft, as well as by those who opposed the war, but not the draft.
>
> I think of the VietNam war as one, in the United States, of almost pure
> memetic content; a war in which memes replaced policy, analysis and debate
> -- a memetic war. And I think the style has endured in later US
> wars: Somalia, Iraq, Kossovo.
>
> - Lawrence
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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