Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA06148 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 14 May 2000 04:23:10 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01bfbdc0$c79eb220$03000004@r2z3h3> From: "Tyger" <void@internet-zahav.net.il> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <Pine.SGI.4.10.10005121950390.8878275-100000@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> Subject: Re: are memes born of complex systems? Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:23:44 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Thank you Robert for an excellent exposition.
Now lets see if I can take this one step further.
will you agree that:
1.All individuals are networks of cells,
2.all species are networks of individuals,
3.all ecosystems are networks of species
Hence the great meta-organism of life is a huge network of discreet
entities, cooperating, co-evolving, competing for supremacy but ultimately
yielding to the emergent property of the meta-system. (there is no need to
posit self-awareness or self consciousness here) This emergent property is
in fact that which may call the organizing principle of meaningfull
information (though I gather that there is no such animal as non- meaningful
information).
Would you consider the idea that language (and thus memes) is born as an
emergent property of this auto-catalytic, co-evolutionary, competitive
principle of meaningful informatics?
and thus to conclude this message we may add to the first three aspects
which I mentioned the following:
all ideas are networks of discreet memes. (in this case a meme will be the
ultimate irreducible of mind). makes sense?
warm regards,
Tyger.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Logan" <logan@physics.utoronto.ca>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: are memes born of complex systems?
> This is an excellent set of questions - I believe that complexity gives
> rise to evolution in the case of languages. I have written extensively on
> the evolution of language from non-verbal tool making, social intelligence
> and mimetic communication to verbal language in which words act as our
> first concepts.
>
> The institution of verbal language allowed a transition from purely
> perceptual thought to conceptual thought - this transition was required to
> deal with the complexity of life brought about by the success of hominid
> (pre-human) with tool making, control of fire, social intelligence and
> large scale co-ordinated hunting.
>
> In a book The Fifth Language I show how speech evolved
> into other forms of language namely, writing, math, science and computing.
> I a new book to be released this moth The Sixth Language I add the
> Internet to this chain of languages. I believe that the complexity of life
> gave rise to information overloads and hence chaos out of which a new
> level of order emerged in the form of a new language. If you want to read
> more about this email me and I will send you Chapt 1 of the Sixth
> Language.
>
> So complexity gives rise to evolution as far as I am concerned - now for
> your second question does evolution give rise to complexity. I would say
> affirmative if one believes that human life evolved from simple one cell
> creatures and if one believes that human life is more complex that
> bacterial life. Also as our thinking process evolved with the advent of
> verbal language they also became more complex.
>
> So now the question becomes which came first complexity or evolution and
> here I turn to the work of Stuart Kaufman (At Home in the Universe) who
> introduced the idea of auto-catalysis to explain the origins of life. If a
> group of organic chemicals can act as catalysts for each other's reactions
> then if these chemicals find themselves within a bi-lipid membrane with
> enough raw material to create themselves and a source of energy to drive
> the chemical interactions then perhaps this group of chemicals can
> reproduce itself.
>
> I will therefore postulate that complexity and evolution are
> auto-catalytic in that complexity gives rise to evolution and vice-versa
> in an endless chain of emergence. The chain of emergence replaces the
> medieval notion of the chain of being.
>
> If anyone out there can help me refresh my memory of The chain of being I
> would be obliged.
>
> Many thanks to Tyger for his thought provoking questions
>
> Bob Logan
>
****************************************************************************
> * Robert K. Logan - Assoc. Prof. of Physics - University of Toronto
*
> * 60 St. George Street - Toronto, Ontario, M5S 1A7 - Canada
*
> * e-mail: logan@physics.utoronto.ca
*
> * phone: (416)978-8632 or 652-2570 or 927-9200 fax: (416)927-7077
*
> * Author of: The Fifth Language: Learning a Living in the Computer Age
*
>
****************************************************************************
>
>
> On Sat, 13 May 2000, Tyger wrote:
>
> > Another issue which seems to hide in the background of this discussion
is
> > the issue of complexity and probability when applied to memetics.
> >
> > questions that I ponder:
> > 1. is evolution a feature of complex systems? (thus implying the
secondary
> > nature of evolution to the primacy of complexity in nature)
> > or
> > 2. is complexity a feature of evolution (Thus implying the opposite)
> >
> > in other words, tackling the egg and chicken meme again. Evolution is an
> > inevitable part/feature/ principle of the nature of Life, hence Life is
by
> > its own very definition a complex system, predicatble only in
statistical
> > terms. which brings us to the basic question of evolution and memetics.
is
> > the arisal of memes inevitable?
> >
> > not sure the above counts as a thought anyway, just sharing the ponder..
> >
> > Tyger.
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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