Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id BAA02869 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 13 May 2000 01:25:16 +0100 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 20:23:19 -0400 From: Robert Logan <logan@physics.utoronto.ca> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: are memes born of complex systems? In-Reply-To: <00c101bfbcb6$833c4c60$03000004@r2z3h3> Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.10.10005121950390.8878275-100000@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
This is an excellent set of questions - I believe that complexity gives
rise to evolution in the case of languages. I have written extensively on
the evolution of language from non-verbal tool making, social intelligence
and mimetic communication to verbal language in which words act as our
first concepts.
The institution of verbal language allowed a transition from purely
perceptual thought to conceptual thought - this transition was required to
deal with the complexity of life brought about by the success of hominid
(pre-human) with tool making, control of fire, social intelligence and
large scale co-ordinated hunting.
In a book The Fifth Language I show how speech evolved
into other forms of language namely, writing, math, science and computing.
I a new book to be released this moth The Sixth Language I add the
Internet to this chain of languages. I believe that the complexity of life
gave rise to information overloads and hence chaos out of which a new
level of order emerged in the form of a new language. If you want to read
more about this email me and I will send you Chapt 1 of the Sixth
Language.
So complexity gives rise to evolution as far as I am concerned - now for
your second question does evolution give rise to complexity. I would say
affirmative if one believes that human life evolved from simple one cell
creatures and if one believes that human life is more complex that
bacterial life. Also as our thinking process evolved with the advent of
verbal language they also became more complex.
So now the question becomes which came first complexity or evolution and
here I turn to the work of Stuart Kaufman (At Home in the Universe) who
introduced the idea of auto-catalysis to explain the origins of life. If a
group of organic chemicals can act as catalysts for each other's reactions
then if these chemicals find themselves within a bi-lipid membrane with
enough raw material to create themselves and a source of energy to drive
the chemical interactions then perhaps this group of chemicals can
reproduce itself.
I will therefore postulate that complexity and evolution are
auto-catalytic in that complexity gives rise to evolution and vice-versa
in an endless chain of emergence. The chain of emergence replaces the
medieval notion of the chain of being.
If anyone out there can help me refresh my memory of The chain of being I
would be obliged.
Many thanks to Tyger for his thought provoking questions
Bob Logan
****************************************************************************
* Robert K. Logan - Assoc. Prof. of Physics - University of Toronto *
* 60 St. George Street - Toronto, Ontario, M5S 1A7 - Canada *
* e-mail: logan@physics.utoronto.ca *
* phone: (416)978-8632 or 652-2570 or 927-9200 fax: (416)927-7077 *
* Author of: The Fifth Language: Learning a Living in the Computer Age *
****************************************************************************
On Sat, 13 May 2000, Tyger wrote:
> Another issue which seems to hide in the background of this discussion is
> the issue of complexity and probability when applied to memetics.
>
> questions that I ponder:
> 1. is evolution a feature of complex systems? (thus implying the secondary
> nature of evolution to the primacy of complexity in nature)
> or
> 2. is complexity a feature of evolution (Thus implying the opposite)
>
> in other words, tackling the egg and chicken meme again. Evolution is an
> inevitable part/feature/ principle of the nature of Life, hence Life is by
> its own very definition a complex system, predicatble only in statistical
> terms. which brings us to the basic question of evolution and memetics. is
> the arisal of memes inevitable?
>
> not sure the above counts as a thought anyway, just sharing the ponder..
>
> Tyger.
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sat May 13 2000 - 01:25:36 BST