Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA21149 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 10 May 2000 15:06:43 +0100 Message-ID: <3919274E.D7FCD0D8@mediaone.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:09:34 +0100 From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: a memetic experiment- an eIe opener References: <200005100750.IAA00646@faichney.demon.co.uk> <008401bfbaea$a2a1f5a0$03000004@r2z3h3> <39191666.4C26D5B5@mediaone.net> <00e701bfbaf2$3b7a8380$03000004@r2z3h3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Thanx. No, it's not anti-evolutionary in this sense.
Tyger wrote:
> the word emergent is used in the last years in many fields, but to the best
> of my knowledge its origination is from system theory, cybernetics and the
> like. mainly its modern usage comes to emphasize properties of complex
> systems which cannot be reduced to the components of the same system.
> examples abound:
> 1. wetness is an emregnt property of water
> 2. health is an emergent property of body
> 3. a hive behavior is an emrgent property of many bees
> 4. flock behavior is an emergent property of many birds
>
> on the same gyst it may be said that consciousness is an emergent property
> of brains etc. (see Chalmers)
>
> I dont think it is anti-evolutionary. systemic perception allows for
> properties that are not reducible to its components. that does not mean
> something out of nothing. it means something out of many something elses,
> which do not contain the specific something.
>
> the concept weather for example is not reducible to wind or temperature, yet
> it is an obvious example of a property emerging from many localities
> operating as an ensemble. co-operating and co-evolving.
>
> Tyger.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Palson" <cpalson@mediaone.net>
> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:57 AM
> Subject: Re: a memetic experiment- an eIe opener
>
> >
> >
> > Tyger wrote:
> >
> > > Propaganda can be seen as very usefull, not only to the propagandist but
> to
> > > the culture and society in which it operates. propaganda (without value
> > > associated) I see as an attribute of the emergent property of groups.
> >
> > Tyger - could you define what you mean by emergent? I see this word a lot
> in the
> > last few years, and I wonder about it. It is a term in evolutionary
> studies that
> > is specifically anti-evolution because it posits that something can emerge
> from
> > nothing -- which would be negative evidence for evolution. But I have the
> sense
> > that it is being used differently by others.
> >
> > > its
> > > main purpose (which is different then the intended purpose of the said
> > > propagandist) is the cohesion it creates in a given culture. hence its
> > > usefulness. memes are the discreet entities of propaganda, but its
> > > understanding should be on the meta-system level.
> > > thus propaganda works because it is a glue, cohesive force.
> > > its use to the recipient: giving or creating the feeling (or illusionary
> > > feeling) of being part of a/the group.
> >
> > It's not entirely illusory by any means. Leaders must give concrete
> benefits to
> > earn loyalty. And there ARE concrete benefits to acting as part of a group
> > against another group, especially if there are limits to available
> resources.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tyger
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Robin Faichney" <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk>
> > > To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:50 AM
> > > Subject: Re: a memetic experiment- an eIe opener
> > >
> > > > Chuck wrote:
> > > > >Robin Faichney wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Is "propagandistic value" the same as, or different from,
> "usefulness"?
> > > > >>
> > > > >The best person to ask that is your local politician. Far be it for
> me to
> > > be so
> > > > >pretentious as to know the answer.
> > > >
> > > > Propaganda is obviously of use to the propagandist, but surely your
> > > > model says that a meme won't be picked up unless it is of use to the
> > > > recipient -- in which case, what is propaganda?
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Robin Faichney
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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