Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA20985 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 10 May 2000 14:40:03 +0100 Message-ID: <00e701bfbaf2$3b7a8380$03000004@r2z3h3> From: "Tyger" <void@internet-zahav.net.il> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> References: <200005100750.IAA00646@faichney.demon.co.uk> <008401bfbaea$a2a1f5a0$03000004@r2z3h3> <39191666.4C26D5B5@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: a memetic experiment- an eIe opener Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 04:40:11 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
the word emergent is used in the last years in many fields, but to the best
of my knowledge its origination is from system theory, cybernetics and the
like. mainly its modern usage comes to emphasize properties of complex
systems which cannot be reduced to the components of the same system.
examples abound:
1. wetness is an emregnt property of water
2. health is an emergent property of body
3. a hive behavior is an emrgent property of many bees
4. flock behavior is an emergent property of many birds
on the same gyst it may be said that consciousness is an emergent property
of brains etc. (see Chalmers)
I dont think it is anti-evolutionary. systemic perception allows for
properties that are not reducible to its components. that does not mean
something out of nothing. it means something out of many something elses,
which do not contain the specific something.
the concept weather for example is not reducible to wind or temperature, yet
it is an obvious example of a property emerging from many localities
operating as an ensemble. co-operating and co-evolving.
Tyger.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Palson" <cpalson@mediaone.net>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: a memetic experiment- an eIe opener
>
>
> Tyger wrote:
>
> > Propaganda can be seen as very usefull, not only to the propagandist but
to
> > the culture and society in which it operates. propaganda (without value
> > associated) I see as an attribute of the emergent property of groups.
>
> Tyger - could you define what you mean by emergent? I see this word a lot
in the
> last few years, and I wonder about it. It is a term in evolutionary
studies that
> is specifically anti-evolution because it posits that something can emerge
from
> nothing -- which would be negative evidence for evolution. But I have the
sense
> that it is being used differently by others.
>
> > its
> > main purpose (which is different then the intended purpose of the said
> > propagandist) is the cohesion it creates in a given culture. hence its
> > usefulness. memes are the discreet entities of propaganda, but its
> > understanding should be on the meta-system level.
> > thus propaganda works because it is a glue, cohesive force.
> > its use to the recipient: giving or creating the feeling (or illusionary
> > feeling) of being part of a/the group.
>
> It's not entirely illusory by any means. Leaders must give concrete
benefits to
> earn loyalty. And there ARE concrete benefits to acting as part of a group
> against another group, especially if there are limits to available
resources.
>
> >
> >
> > Tyger
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robin Faichney" <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk>
> > To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: a memetic experiment- an eIe opener
> >
> > > Chuck wrote:
> > > >Robin Faichney wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Is "propagandistic value" the same as, or different from,
"usefulness"?
> > > >>
> > > >The best person to ask that is your local politician. Far be it for
me to
> > be so
> > > >pretentious as to know the answer.
> > >
> > > Propaganda is obviously of use to the propagandist, but surely your
> > > model says that a meme won't be picked up unless it is of use to the
> > > recipient -- in which case, what is propaganda?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Robin Faichney
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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