Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id XAA08499 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:26:43 GMT Message-Id: <200003032327.SAA21488@mail1.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 17:28:40 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya In-reply-to: <B0000481663@htcompmail.htcomp.net> References: <200003031810.NAA20229@mail2.lig.bellsouth.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Date sent: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 17:56:35 -0500
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: "Mark M. Mills" <mmills@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Joe,
>
> At 12:13 PM 3/3/00 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >A behavior is a meme only if it admits of variations or evolutions or
> >mutations and is not the same species-wide, and if the distinctions
> >are essential ones, i.e. ones which change the signification or
> >intention of the behavior in question and thus could not be
> >circumscribed by instinct, and if it is transmitted/received between
> >individuals by communicational (not genetic) means.
>
> This is fairly close to the published Gatherer definition.
> http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit/1998/vol2/gatherer_d.html In particular,
> they both say that a behavior can be a meme. As I pointed out before, this
> is one of two published usages of the term meme. The other is Lynch's.
> http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit/1998/vol2/lynch_a.html
>
> It seems to me that your mention of mutation poses problems for the
> Gatherer definition. Mutation, as generally understood, is "a sudden,
> apparently abnormal change or alteration in a genetically determined
> structure." This alludes to the genotype-phenotype concept. For a meme to
> 'mutate' there must be a genotype. If the behavior is a meme, what is the
> genotype?
>
The conception held in the mind of the agent which motivates the
behavior.
>
> Blackmore, a subscriber to the Gatherer meme definition, dismisses
> genotype-phenotype issues in Meme Machine. By dismissing this, she burns
> any bridges she might have had to evolutionary science, but that doesn't
> seem to bother her. As could be expected, the Science and Nature magazines
> published scathing reviews of the book.
>
> I'm interested in relating mutation to cultural change. I just don't think
> the Gatherer definition particularly helpful.
>
> I much prefer the Lynch definition.
>
> MEME (Lynch)
> A memory item, or portion of an organism's neurally-stored information,
> identified using the abstraction system of the observer, whose
> instantiation depended critically on causation by prior instantiation of
> the same memory item in one or more other organisms' nervous systems.
>
> Except for the notion that behavior = meme, this fits your criteria pretty
> well. Behavior has become phenotypic. Your list of criteria can then be
> used to test a behavior for infering the existence of an underlying meme in
> the subject's neural system. The genotype-phenotype model is honored and
> bridges can be built to existing evolutionary theory.
>
> I'll be interested to hear the problems you find with the Lynch definition.
>
I see memes as existing in either of two forms; 1) exclusively
within a consciousness, where intentional or
inadvertant/accidental modification/mutation can take place in
reaction to either (or both) already present information
(memory/knowledge) and/or subsequently encountered information
(perception), and 2) both within and between consciousnesses, in
action (including speech), where selection can be applied to the
transmission of memes by means of their acceptance or rejection
by prospected receivers (resulting in evolution), and where
modification/mutation can also take place due to the vagaries of
communication (such as misunderstanding or incomplete
communication and the subsequent 'filling in of the gaps" by the
receiver). There is within hermeneutics a dialectic between
explanation and understanding which addresses this "gap"
problem, as well as a dialectic between distanciation and
appropriation which attempts to find the "sweet spot" where faithful
communication is optimized. For instance, if the tramsmitter is
shouting, the candidate receiver can better understand the
message if they are at some distance rather than mouth to ear, the
exact opposite of the situation when the transmitter is whispering.
> Mark
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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