Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA07840 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:12:23 GMT Message-Id: <200003031810.NAA20229@mail2.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:13:02 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya In-reply-to: <B0000472580@htcompmail.htcomp.net> References: <1260058958-17555999@smtp.clarityconnect.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Date sent: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 12:34:37 -0500
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: "Mark M. Mills" <mmills@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Raymond,
>
> I was trying to better understand what you used to distinguish 'socially
> derived behaviors' and 'memes.' People use meme in a lot of different
> ways. I see most falling into one of two general usages.
>
> Some people use the genotype-phenotype relationship to define meme. In
> this case, the meme is some neural activity or circuit configuration and
> thus analogous to the genotype. Behavior is the phenotype (memotype).
> Thus, one can say that wearing a suit and tie (socially transmitted
> behavior) is memotype to the neural configuration is meme (genotype).
>
> Blackmore's Meme Machine discounts the genotype-phenotype logic explicitly.
> She suggests the behavior and the meme are indistinguishable. The suit
> and tie are both behavior and meme.
>
> In earlier posts these two competing definitions were labeled 'G-memes' and
> 'L-memes'. The 'G-meme' got its name from Derek Gatherer and an article he
> published in the Journal of Memetics. The 'L-meme' definition got its name
> from Aaron Lynch and his JoM article.
>
> I advocate the L-meme definition.
>
> I was wondering which model/definition you were using. Here is what you said:
>
> >>Just to toss in my two cents on this subject I think we do have to be
> >>careful to distinguish between socially derived behaviors and memes.
>
> Based on your elaborating comments, it seems you are using the G-meme
> model, equating meme and behavior. The difference between 'meme' (G-meme)
> and new individual behavior is the treatment the social group makes of
> their reaction to the new behavior. You are distinguishing between
> continuously transmitted behaviors (a social group's memorization of
> previous innovations) and individual innovations themselves. As best I can
> interprete these comments, behaviors become memes when they are replicated
> over time by members of the group. In other words, a behavior is only a
> meme if a social group imitates the behavior.
>
A behavior is a meme only if it admits of variations or evolutions or
mutations and is not the same species-wide, and if the distinctions
are essential ones, i.e. ones which change the signification or
intention of the behavior in question and thus could not be
circumscribed by instinct, and if it is transmitted/received between
individuals by communicational (not genetic) means.
>
> Am I understanding what you've said?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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