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Robin Faichney wrote: Snipped for brevity
My main concern is to say that memetics need, and
should, have no subjective element. That's my main beef with Joe, too.
> However, with subjectivity eliminated, I'm no longer sure what "the level of
> meaning" means. But how about this: one meme, in two different brains, is
> identified as such not by its encoding in any mind or brain "language" (ie
> syntactically), but by its effects on behaviour: these individuals behave in a
> relevantly similar fashion.
>
> BTW, on looking at Consciousness Explained for the first time in ages -- years,
> in fact -- I realised that Dennett and I share what I thought was my own idea:
> that memes are to be found in *both* brains and behaviour. He even uses
> the same metaphor, saying that the meme in the brain is in a sort of pupal
> stage. The disappointment in realising I'm not the originator of this is nicely
> balanced by my pleasure at being in such distinguished company. :-)
>
Well, I felt that sooner or later I would have to get in here. I thought we (most of us) had come to the
conclusion that the meme internally is unique, just as the organism is unique, and particularly as the associative
network of the individual is unique. This is fairly apparent because our experiences are different, our chemistry
is different, our physiology is different, etc., etc.
On the other hand, externally and symbolically, the meme can be relatively fixed, constant or unchanging (even
though the only things truly constant are change and the speed of light in a vacuum). This is the same for our
language and other symbology. A word in Swahili means nothing to most of us because it has no meaning in our
reference system (which is, again, naturally subjective). We have referred to the meme externally as the seed, the
husk, etc., when these discussions have arisen in the past. But, when within the organism, all of those other
factors of the neural environment impact the meme, interact with it, etc. The Calvinist Work Ethic might make many
people work at varying rates but some would work less, because that is how they would react to the meme even though
the words are the same . The "similarity" between the affective nature of the meme expressed in thought and
behavior is because of the "similarity" between the organisms, their cultural background, age, etc., etc., but it's
effects would always be different with different folks (different strokes...). Thus, religious meme complexes
might invigorate and inspire some to a type of transcendental experience and turn others to "pagan" behavior in
response. Fortunately, these responses are similar to the ones we have with simple words or other symbology, in
that the responses, most of the time, are "close enough for government work" and produce somewhat similar
responses, enough so that we fairly understand each other. But, never forget the old analogy where we line up
"believers" in any type of system in a circle and have one state a principle, what that principle means to them,
and then ask everyone who doesn't agree completely with that expressed meaning to step inward. Naturally the
circle keeps changing shape constantly because even though these folks say that they "agree," the agreement is
simply with certain tolerances. These tolerances vary greatly with cultures and the individuals for all of the
reasons suggested above. Hormonal tensions, pheromones, educational background, life philosophies, politics, etc.,
etc., determine our response behaviorally at any one time, individually.
Again, sometimes, the symbology or meme produces a response that is "close enough for government work" and we see
the relationship between signal and response. At other times the variables just are too many for us to determine
what the outcome will be, statistically, with the individual responses.
Just take a "charitable contribution meme" and tell me what will happen when individuals are exposed to the meme
say in printed word format, a sad story with inspiration and good feelings associated with giving. The percentages
of folks contributing, the amounts contributed, the number who respond oppositely, i.e., refuse to give or become
angry, etc., in response, will vary all over the lot. The meme is acting because the stronger the meme the higher
the take but the individual responses will be quite different and certainly individual. Yet, the symbology will
usually be the same film, printed material, public address, individual appeal, etc.
Again, it is a wonder that we "understand" each other but we do a fair to middling job. Still, remember the old
game where a fixed story is whispered to an individual who whispers it to another and so on down the line and the
difference in the "final product" and the initial stimulus is usually quite marked...
Thus, we can also compare it to genetic responses where the particular gene may be for a specific physical trait
but the presence of other genes, other environmental effects of the organism, etc., may indicate similarities but
there are always those individual differences which may be extreme because of the number of variables and the
interaction of them.
Hopefully, I've made my point that the symbology is not the meme, it is only complete as a meme within the organism
and, because of the variability of the organisms, the effects will also vary.
Thanks for being patient...
Cordially,
Bob
-- Bob Grimeshttp://members.aol.com/bob5266/ http://pages.hotbot.com/edu/bobinjax/ http://www.phonefree.com/Scripts/cgiParse.exe?sID=28788 Jacksonville, Florida Bob5266@aol.com robert.grimes@excite.com bobinjax@hotbot.com
Man is not in control, but the man who knows he is not in control is more in control...
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore....."
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