Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA25597 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:45:37 GMT Message-Id: <200002231846.NAA00542@mail1.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:47:54 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: What are memes made of? In-reply-to: <00022317095000.00570@faichney> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Robin Faichney <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Reborn Technology
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: RE: What are memes made of?
Date sent: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:03:53 +0000
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> >> >
> >> >To embellish this point slightly... in my mind the question is, does the
> >> >evolution of birdsong result in the formation of culture, which takes on a
> >> >life of its own independent of, but on the platform of, its genetic
> >> >heritage? That's when it would be memetics.
> >>
> >> Depends what you mean by "culture", of course. Some people think it only means
> >> stuff like opera. But the only strict and systematic definition I know,
> >> whereby information is passed between generations not only by genetics but
> >> also via learned behavioural patterns, clearly includes the relevant types of
> >> birdsong. The information that is learned, is the culture.
> >>
> >And what is the character of information learned, and the nature of
> >the culture created, if birdsong variations are bereft of differentiable
> >intention and meaning?
>
> Don't know what you mean by "the character of information learned", or what
> sort of answer might fit "the nature of the culture created", but the
> information is the relevant (learned) portion of the birdsong, and that is also
> the culture. (It might seem that the culture should be the *whole* of the
> birdsong, which makes a sort of intuitive sense, but it unfortunately does not
> fit the present definition of culture -- perhaps that needs widening -- even
> if some people think it already far too wide!)
>
How are the birds differentially informed by it? What difference
does it make? Does it evolve, as our language does? Do these
songs you are trying to call a culture have distinct although
interconnected epochs, as cultures have? Have you obtained
tapes from many years ago, and at regular periods since, proving
that these supposed variations do undergo evolutional and
accumulative changes? The persistence of ongoing selection is
crucial to memetics. If you cannot prove that these slight
variations are NOT merely oscillating in a genetically circumscribed
imprint box but indeed have the freedom from instinctual
constraints to fully respond to their differing and changing
environments and experiences, then you cannot prove your case.
> --
> Robin Faichney
>
>
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Feb 23 2000 - 18:46:10 GMT