Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id XAA23807 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:46:03 GMT Message-Id: <200002222345.SAA27474@mail3.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:48:27 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: memetics-digest V1 #130 In-reply-to: <00022216411502.00473@faichney> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Robin Faichney <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Reborn Technology
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: memetics-digest V1 #130
Date sent: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:38:34 +0000
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> >> >> >As I say chapters 12-14 of Darwin's Dangerous Idea are probably the best explanation of Dennett's view on
> >> >> >this, but if you didn't have much time you could get an idea from the sub-chapter "could there be a science
> >> >> >of memetics?" pp. 352-360. This quote should count as evidence that Dennett thinks memetics is about
> >> >> >meaning: (from DDI p. 353-4)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"what is preserved and transmitted in cultural evolution is *information* - in a media-neutral,
> >> >> >language-neutral sense. Thus the meme is primarily a *semantic* classification, not a *syntactic*
> >> >> >classification that might be directly observable in "brain language" or natural language."
> >> >>
> >> >> What he's saying here is that the meme is encoded, not straight physical
> >> >> information. The encoding can, and does, vary, but the encoded message remains
> >> >> the same. No?
> >> >>
> >> >Yes, this is true. The coding is the syntax, and coding schemes
> >> >may be studied structurally, without reference to meaning, kinda
> >> >like the relations between algebraic variables may be studied
> >> >independent of them being assigned specific quantities, as long as
> >> >they are abstracted from any particular message. The message,
> >> >however, is semantic, and cannot be so studied,
> >>
> >> It cannot be studied as if it were syntax, because it is not. I'm saying it is
> >> a different type and/or level of encoding (and it's relatively arbitrary,
> >> while syntax is systematic). Consider a hypothetical language where every
> >> utterance consisted of just one word. Syntax, which is about how words are
> >> combined, would not be an issue. I say that the meaning of each word is
> >> clearly encoded by that word. In fact, though it's probably an
> >> oversimplification, you could say that about individual words in real
> >> languages. Do you agree, and if not, why not?
> >>
> >Becaus of Ferdinand de Saussure (COURSE IN GENERAL
> >LINGUISTICS), who pointed out that words only possess meanings
> >in a gestalt field composed of a vocabulary of other words...
>
> OK, forget the bit about individual words. But please explain why semantics
> cannot be considered encoded in language, and how, if it is not encoded,
> meaning gets conveyed from sender to receiver.
>
Of course semantics is encoded, but that does not negate
semantics itself as a necessary and essential component of
memesis. In the absence of a significant (meaningful) message,
coding schemes are useless, for their use is to facilitate the
communication of messages. The uncoded message is garble; the
messageless code is empty abstraction.
> --
> Robin Faichney
>
>
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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